[Tybot]

Hey guys, I'm entertaining the idea of joining the C9 Club. Has anyone here paired one with the original Sony WM1Z, and if so, what's your experience of the combo? I'm a bit concerned the WM1Z doesn't have a true LO, but I'm told using the C9 in preamp mode fixes that issue. Would welcome any insight or advice.

Absolutely love the combo. WM1Z + C9 is my portable desktop end game.

 

[gLer]

Absolutely love the combo. WM1Z + C9 is my portable desktop end game.

Thanks, do you use the C9 in preamp mode as advised for the Sony players without dedicated LO? Also, what would you say is improved, sound wise, with the C9 (vs direct from the 1Z with custom FW)?

 

[karloil]

Hi everyone, I have the C9 on order and I have read the "FAQ and Resources" of @Andykong. Of course I want to learn from past mistakes and here's what I learned so far:

1. Don't charge the C9 and DAP at the same time
2. IF I want to charge both C9 and DAP at the SAME time - use 2 different chargers (1 for C9, 1 for DAP) BUT NEVER on the same charger
3. Connect all cable, interconnect 1st before turning C9 ON
4. Make sure interconnects are pushed all the way in before turning C9 ON
5. Turn OFF C9 1st before unplugging any interconnect, cable

Did I miss anything?

 

[jlemaster1957]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes, WM1Z is non-negotiable. I'll be testing the C9 in the not-too-distant future, so just wanted to gather some shared experience meanwhile. Will report back here once I do.

Prior reviews have compared the WM1Z to Hiby R8 that does have a true LO and found the characteristics and performance of the two (R8 and 1Z) to be quite comparable. R8 and C9 pairing is excellent, and has the advantage that when connected by LO, one can keep R8 in low gain and non-Turbo mode and still get the full SQ benefits of C9 in its various tube/SS modes, (since C9 controls the volume and gain too); as well as prolonging R8 battery discharge (longer playback time without recharging)

 

[gLer]

Prior reviews have compared the WM1Z to Hiby R8 that does have a true LO and found the characteristics and performance of the two (R8 and 1Z) to be quite comparable. R8 and C9 pairing is excellent, and has the advantage that when connected by LO, one can keep R8 in low gain and non-Turbo mode and still get the full SQ benefits of C9 in its various tube/SS models, (since C9 controls the volume and gain too); as well as prolonging R8 battery discharge (longer playback time without recharging)

What I'd be looking for in the WM1Z/C9 combo is refinement, stage expansion, and an overall improvement of control over individual elements. I'd also like to see how the combination of Class A/tube amplification synergises with the Sony House sound. I'm actually not after extra power output, even though that's one of the C9's selling points. The WM1Z has more than enough power for the IEMs/headphones I use with it.

 

[jlemaster1957]

Hi everyone, I have the C9 on order and I have read the "FAQ and Resources" of @Andykong. Of course I want to learn from past mistakes and here's what I learned so far:

1. Don't charge the C9 and DAP at the same time
2. IF I want to charge both C9 and DAP at the SAME time - use 2 different chargers (1 for C9, 1 for DAP) BUT NEVER on the same charger
3. Connect all cable, interconnect 1st before turning C9 ON
4. Make sure interconnects are pushed all the way in before turning C9 ON
5. Turn OFF C9 1st before unplugging any interconnect, cable

Did I miss anything?

One additional item- C9 is really meant to be connected to a battery powered DAP. If connected to a powered DAC or computer or a laptop that is charging (via 3.5 mm aux, for example), you may also create a short circuit- especially if C9 is also charging at the same time. If the upstream DAC is battery powered you should be safe, eg I have connected it to an IFi micro iDSD signature that is battery powered (via RCA out from the Signature) without problem - even though the upstream signal source was USB from a DC-powered streamer (Sonore MicroRendu). I have still avoided charging C9 while doing so- just to be safe.

 

[Tybot]

Thanks, do you use the C9 in preamp mode as advised for the Sony players without dedicated LO? Also, what would you say is improved, sound wise, with the C9 (vs direct from the 1Z with custom FW)

Yep. Preamp mode. I run it in pre on A/B with high gain. With the C9 the obvious addition is oomph/head room. It adds warmth while keep the highs crystal clear. The sound envelops you. I think the IEMs I'm using (EVO, Traillii) are helped greatly by the power.

If it helps, I also have DX300Max. I like it better than WM1Z on it's own but like the WM1Z+C9 better than DX300Max and even DX300Max+C9. So yeah...I don't think the WM1Z lack of line out negatively affects it one iota.

 

[karloil]

One additional item- C9 is really meant to be connected to a battery powered DAP. If connected to a powered DAC or computer or a laptop that is charging (via 3.5 mm aux, for example), you may also create a short circuit- especially if C9 is also charging at the same time. If the upstream DAC is battery powered you should be safe, eg I have connected it to an IFi micro iDSD signature that is battery powered (via RCA out from the Signature) without problem - even though the upstream signal source was USB from a DC-powered streamer (Sonore MicroRendu). I have still avoided charging C9 while doing so- just to be safe.

Oh yeah, also saw this somewhere in this thread, Thank you for the reminder! I also plan to use it occasionally with the Gryphon. Will add this to my reminder

1. Don't charge C9 and DAP at the same time - when in use
2. IF I want to charge both C9 and DAP at the SAME time (when in use) - use 2 different chargers (1 for C9, 1 for DAP) BUT NEVER on the same charger
3. Connect all cable, interconnect 1st before turning C9 ON
4. Make sure interconnects are pushed all the way in before turning C9 ON
5. Turn OFF C9 1st before unplugging any interconnect, cable
6. Don't charge C9 when it's connected to any A/C powered DAC - battery power DACs are acceptable.

 

[karloil]

@Andykong

I have a technical question regarding the recommended 18650 to be used on the C9.

Is there a recommened Discharge rate that you/your engineers recommend for the 18650 battery?

I understand that you use Sony VTC6 (by default) which has a maximum discharge rate of 15A-30A. Users here recommended Orbtronic which has a max discharge rate of 10A (Unfortunately, Orbtronic doesn't ship to my country.)

Now I'm looking at other 18650 with higher capacity (mAh) - I just like confirmation of your recommended Amperage discharge rate.

 

[jlemaster1957]

@Andykong

I have a technical question regarding the recommended 18650 to be used on the C9.

Is there a recommened Discharge rate that you/your engineers recommend for the 18650 battery?

I understand that you use Sony VTC6 (by default) which has a maximum discharge rate of 15A-30A. Users here recommended Orbtronic which has a max discharge rate of 10A (Unfortunately, Orbtronic doesn't ship to my country.)

Now I'm looking at other 18650 with higher capacity (mAh) - I just like confirmation of your recommended Amperage discharge rate.

I’m not sure that there is any way to control discharge rate on tbe C9 while using it other than the mode you use. SS discharges (uses less power) slower than tubes and class AB slower than Class A. So if you are playing back, you will discharge the battery faster with Tubes +Class A than SS+ class AB. Of course the slowest is not to use it at all, that will be much slower. The important thing is not to overcharge (charge till the 4th light is no longer blinking) nor to over discharge (let it discharge till C9 shuts down). This will all shorten battery life. Also, don’t leave in a fully discharged state for a long time- eventually it will lose the capacity to recharge. Better to re charge (till 4th light is blinking) as soon as it is discharged. If you don’t use then for a few days it will discharge some but not much.

I have both the Orbotronics and the VTC6s. Contrary to expectation, I find the Orbotronics discharge faster, but that may be because of the 10 A limitation. The C9 is probably pulling the max current that they can deliver, while the VTC6 has a bit of headroom in terms of max amperage.

 

[karloil]

I’m not sure that there is any way to control discharge rate on tbe C9 while using it other than the mode you use. SS discharges (uses less power) slower than tubes and class AB slower than Class A. So if you are playing back, you will discharge the battery faster with Tubes +Class A than SS+ class AB. Of course the slowest is not to use it at all, that will be much slower. The important thing is not to overcharge (charge till the 4th light is no longer blinking) nor to over discharge (let it discharge till C9 shuts down). This will all shorten battery life. Also, don’t leave in a fully discharged state for a long time- eventually it will lose the capacity to recharge. Better to re charge (till 4th light is blinking) as soon as it is discharged. If you don’t use then for a few days it will discharge some but not much.

I have both the Orbotronics and the VTC6s. Contrary to expectation, I find the Orbotronics discharge faster, but that may be because of the 10 A limitation. The C9 is probably pulling the max current that they can deliver, while the VTC6 has a bit of headroom in terms of max amperage.

Yes, I understand this but I just want to know if the Engineers at Cayin has a recommended discharge rate for 18650 batteries.

Doing a quick research, only VTC6 can discharge at 15A-30A. The next one I know is the 30Q which discharges at 15A - although both are at 3000mAh capacity

I'm looking at various 3500mAh capacities and their discharge rates are at 10A. Some 5A, some 2A.

So not sure @Andykong if this question is even valid. I just want to make sure that I'm not starving the C9 of it's needed Amp usage. (My apologies as my ECE101/electronics knowledge is quite rusty)

 

[Andykong]

Welcome to the club

Enjoying my LP6K/C9/IER-Z1R while writing these lines. You will love this amp.

I am thinking of buying a set of IER-Z1R next week as personal reference. I have heard it with N8 and N6ii (A01), but I haven't heard it with later Audio Motherboards, N8ii or C9. I assumed you have tried a lot of pairings with Z1R, do you think Z1R and C9 is a recommended pair? one of the best you tried?

 

[Andykong]

What I'd be looking for in the WM1Z/C9 combo is refinement, stage expansion, and an overall improvement of control over individual elements. I'd also like to see how the combination of Class A/tube amplification synergises with the Sony House sound. I'm actually not after extra power output, even though that's one of the C9's selling points. The WM1Z has more than enough power for the IEMs/headphones I use with it.

There are several happy WM1Z/C9 users in this thread, and Cayin had included WM1Z as a testing reference for C9 projects. To be frank, I can't think of a better reference, in terms of reputation and popularity, when we want to develop a feature that enables a portable amplifier to pair with a DAP that doesn't have a line out.

As a general guideline, if you connect a DAP to C9 in line input mode, the overall sound signature will be slightly inclined to C9. If you connect the same DAP to C9 in pre-amp input mode, the overall sound signature will be slightly inclined to the DAP. Our initial thinking was to provide a setup that retain the original sound signature of the source with better handling and driving capability, making it possible for them to try out the headphone or IEMs that is not within the reach with DAP alone. If this is not what you need, then our assumption is applicable.

 

[Andykong]

@Andykong

I have a technical question regarding the recommended 18650 to be used on the C9.

Is there a recommened Discharge rate that you/your engineers recommend for the 18650 battery?

I understand that you use Sony VTC6 (by default) which has a maximum discharge rate of 15A-30A. Users here recommended Orbtronic which has a max discharge rate of 10A (Unfortunately, Orbtronic doesn't ship to my country.)

Now I'm looking at other 18650 with higher capacity (mAh) - I just like confirmation of your recommended Amperage discharge rate.

Yes, I understand this but I just want to know if the Engineers at Cayin has a recommended discharge rate for 18650 batteries.

Doing a quick research, only VTC6 can discharge at 15A-30A. The next one I know is the 30Q which discharges at 15A - although both are at 3000mAh capacity

I'm looking at various 3500mAh capacities and their discharge rates are at 10A. Some 5A, some 2A.

So not sure @Andykong if this question is even valid. I just want to make sure that I'm not starving the C9 of it's needed Amp usage. (My apologies as my ECE101/electronics knowledge is quite rusty)

We don't have specific guidelines or requirements for 18650 batteries. Theoretically, they all work fine, and most of them sound alright with C9. The 10A discharge rate will benefit the headroom and transient of the amplifier but batteries with 5A discharge rate are valid options. Be reminded that the discharge rate is NOT the only factor that matters. We didn't pretend we know a lot about battery manufacturing, so we can't explain whether the changes in tonal characteristics are related to the material or the special formula of the battery.

I have tested the Panasonic NCR18650GA and they sound very good with C9, if the Orbtronic are out of stock, maybe you can consider the Panasonic.

I
affects the overall sound signature

 

[F700]

I am thinking of buying a set of IER-Z1R next week as personal reference. I have heard it with N8 and N6ii (A01), but I haven't heard it with later Audio Motherboards, N8ii or C9. I assumed you have tried a lot of pairings with Z1R, do you think Z1R and C9 is a recommended pair? one of the best you tried?

Hi Andy

I have not listened to the Z1R with any of these DAPs. I tried Calyx M (standalone) and the AK SR25mk2 and Lotoo P6K with the C9. I especially like the latter combo with the Z1R. They respond very well with the different settings of the C9.

I have absolutely no problem recommending the Z1R with the C9. Fabulous pairing.