[snip3r77]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

On point

 

[maheeinfy]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

Since there is more space in the new unit, does it mean better layout of components and lower thermals ?

 

[Odin412]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

I'm a very happy owner of the first generation Liquid Carbon and the Massdrop offering does not reduce my joy of owning and using the LC one bit. If anything, I'm happy that more people will have a chance to experience the legendary Cavalli sound at a lower price.

 

[PopZeus]

Only 800 units of the original LC were made? Personally, I'm happy that MD licensed the design for the LCX. I was looking for a more powerful amp, preferably with a smooth signature. I thought that was going to be the CTH but the balanced feature, RCA pass thru, and stackability of the LCX won out over the admittedly intriguing tube section. I do wish that MD had announced the suite all at once so I could just order the amp I wanted most and not have to cancel an order for a different device.

Either way, I'm now happy with this purchase as I have a balanced amp with some serious power. Now, do I really need a balanced DAC or would a SE line out from the Modi Multibit offer enough refinement?

 

[Pharmaboy]

Thanks for that quote.

Honestly, I can see both sides. "Technically" Alex didn't break his word since he isn't making them. But still, it is a slight to the community when Cavalli says they are making a cheaper product to give back to the support of the community and say it is a limited run. Then just give the design to someone else to make it cheaper and sell it as their brand. Will/Massdrop taking the blame for the anger people are feeling is honourable, but it isn't just on them. Alex knew what he was doing and is just as culpable. It isn't the fact that it has killed the resale value (which would bother me too), it's the fact that it was marketed as a limited edition, one-time only product as a thanks to the community. Then you turn around, sell the design and give the finger back to the same community that supported you.

Now, if he had licensed out his Crimson, Gold, Fire, etc., I don't think people would really be that upset. Those weren't 'limited edition' runs (they sort of were, but you know what I mean). They were boutique products that had a small run and were eventually discontinued. While Carbon was produced and targeted as a small batch and once it's gone, it's gone. It isn't surprising when you then take that same design/sound, give it to someone else to make it for less than half the price, and not expect people to be upset.

Now, on the other hand, I completely get were Massdrop is coming from and support them in this project as well. They are bringing quality goods to consumers at very reasonable prices. And are hitting a much wider audience than simply the audiophile community. They are driving the market forward and doing it at a price point that is great for us. It is going to force (hopefully!) other manufacturers to take notice of the increasing price gouging that is going on. When $800-1000 is the new "mid-fi" and we routinely see $2500+ headphones as the norm, it is getting a bit out of hand. Now we have a manufacturer that is bucking that trend. To prove my point, they could have easily charged $500-700 for the LCX and it still would have sold. And actually piss off less people since it wouldn't be killing their resale value so much. But they aren't.

Same thing with the 6XX, K7XX, THX00, etc. The 6XX has killed the 650 value to some degree; K7XX the K712/K702 65th; THX00 the TH600/TH900. But, to new-comers, it is fantastic.

Interestingly, the above collaborations (Sennheiser, AKG, Fostex, Grace), didn't trigger this response because they were never marketed as a limited edition, "when it's gone, it's gone" product like the original Carbon was. That's the problem. Hell, if the design was "copied" like Monoprice's M1060/M300, I don't think that would have bothered the community like this since it wasn't authorized. It's the fact that it was intentionally done by Cavalli that has gotten everyone up in arms.

Terrific post IMO--balanced & insightful.

Speaking only for my own experience, I've been "chased by Massdrop" for over a year--ie, they repeatedly influence/intervene in products I seek to sell on a used basis, here and on Audiogon. It's happened 3 times:

• 1st it was an AKG K553 headphone I'd purchased new (this was well before I'd even heard of Massdrop). It was mint condition, rarely used, and I had it for sale @ the usual ~80% of retail price I paid, including shipping w/in CONUS + Paypal. A month or so after I listed it, suddenly Massdrop was offering the K553s for 75% of what I'd paid for mine. I promptly discounted my price to ~65% of what I'd paid, and they sold. It was an odd experience, discovering that the retail channel for this thing I owned had suddenly greatly expanded.
• 2nd was the Fostex TX00 Mahogany headphone: I purchased them from Massdrop (which I had joined and started learning from). I couldn't live with the treble of these 'phones, which I barely used, after burnin. So once again I listed them for a discount (~85% of what I'd paid, incl. shipping & Paypal). Quickly thereafter, Massdrop offered a new drop of these same headphones. Another learning experience--I was new to Massdrop & didn't realize how often/quickly they "come back to the well" w/the same drops. Oh, well; took more money off mine as they market was flooded w/new TX00s...sold mine for a little less than planned.
• 3rd time was late last year when I picked up a new Status Audio CB-1 headphone from their website. There was a seasonal discount and I felt fine w/what I paid. Unfortunately I discovered that this rather nice pair of headphones was 100% duplicative (sonically) to 2-3 other headphones I already owned. So I listed this barely used beyond burn-in product for sale. A month or two later--right when I started getting inquiries about the CB-1s, suddenly a drop for the CB-1s. By now very experienced w/this syndrome, I lowered my price to where it needed to be & sold my pair.
  
• 4th time is this LCX drop, again unexpected--who would predict Cavalli would license the LC design to Massdrop? It's a first, as far as I know. I am the very happy owner of an LC v2.0 (from the 3rd and final offering on Cavalli's website), and I actually have no plans to sell. But now I know if I ever do sell, it'll be for a considerably lower price that has prevailed in the used market for KCs in recent years.

Maybe I should be aggravated about all this, but it's hard to see it as anything but yet another market "moving away from me" at unexpected speed. It happens with all audio equipment, in one way or other; computers; cars; household appliances; you name it.

I long ago realized a key reality about buying and selling audio gear: namely, if you think you can recover all your costs when selling something (especially if that item was purchased new, not used)--you're kidding yourself. Better to regard any money "lost" on a given transaction as the rental fee for that item, any pleasure you had in using it, and any of the things you learned about audio from it.

 

[KimbaWLion]

I was the person that Will responded to. I was not raging as my post was very polite etc., just voicing my issues and what not. To me raging is something else entirely.
But I feel most understand where I was/am coming from.
There is always a secondary market for things and a lot always try to upgrade, to see something I bought for $799 go down to $299 that hurts..
Even the HD650 to the HD6XX is not the same.

A lot of my gear was bought 2nd hand and my choice of the LC 2.0 was based partly on the fact I would NEVER be able or would want to spend money
on another Cavalli Amp just due to cost for one of the better ones. This was my once shot to own one at a price I could afford. The secondary market is secondary on my mind
but it is something to think about it too as I said above. There is no real rage, just a little hurt that I thought i was part something really special and is not going to be the case the
anymore. They can rephrase and use word play all they like but it does not change a lot. I enjoy my Carbon there is no doubt, I am also all for deals. But to see it for THAT much less?
Now that still hurts...

 

[zerogorgor]

I think it will be equally "controversial" if the Massdrop version is named otherwise while remarking it is sonically identical to Liquid Carbon. I'd feel betrayed had it been done this way.

I appreciate that Alex has provided his explanation, but I am afraid I am not particularly in favour of perceiving Liquid Carbon and Carbon X as distinctively different products due to the differences in transportability and jacks. Considering that the first run Liquid Carbon was said to be "offered at an outrageously discount" and there had already been a final run, launching the Carbon X does not look 100% agreeable to me. I own a first run Liquid Carbon, and I wouldn't say I find the Carbon X launch a pleasant surprise. This will very likely deter me from any future direct purchase.

I bought my Liquid Carbon to give the Cavalli house sound a try, and did intend to bring it along with me when I travel as I travel very frequently. I am still happy to have paid $599 for this level of quality, and I think it has a commendable cost/performance ratio. I think the Liquid Carbon demonstrates something interesting about the Cavalli sound, but it is not impressive enough for me to love the amplifier per se. For this reason, I don't travel with it and has been left idle. To me, the Liquid Carbon serves as a decent first bite of the Cavalli sound, but probably not a good enough first bite that could tempt me to buy the more models that are a few times more expensive.

To me, this Liquid Carbon/Carbon X episode shows that it is possible for Cavalli Audio to go beyond offering old products at the said "outrageously discounted prices", and I would be very tempted to see the more expensive models offered at a similar discount.

 

[Zachik]

First, I would like to thank @runeight Alex for his very insightful and to the point post from earlier today.
Let me offer the perspective of a person from the other side of this debate:
I am NOT a LC owner, but VERY recently decided I want to buy one. Speak of perfect timing... In fact, my search through the FS section started just a couple days before MD's pre-announcement of the LCX.
Also, I just joined the CTH drop last month.

Let me break it down to Cavalli's strategy / choice, and MD's marketing "ploy":

• Cavalli: as Alex explained, very limited quantity was made. Someone like me who missed out can only buy used. Finding used is not easy - there are very few in the FS section, and ever fewer still under warranty. Due to volume pot and other reported issues - buyer takes some risk here! So, Alex decided to license it to MD. I have seen some people bash him for that, and blame him for being greedy. Come on guys, Alex has a great design, no intention to build more himself, so cooperating with someone like MD is a great and legit way to go about it. And don't you agree he deserves to be paid for his design?! As for using the Cavalli and Liquid Carbon names, someone posted he would not have been angry if different name was used. REALLY?!?! give me a break. I personally would way prefer to buy from MD than Chinese company that shamelessly steal the Cavalli design (and obviously pays NO royalties or license fees). And since I decided to keep my CTH - such nice stacking is great The only thing I would have changed (for both CTH and LCX) is having a built-in power supplies! Chassis is much bigger than LC, so plenty room for the power supply (I hate power bricks...)
• MassDrop: here, I am not as positive! @CEE TEE I hope you're listening and learning... I am sure MD did not anticipate the big uproar from CTH buyers. I am personally not one of them, since I want both CTH and LCX, but I think MD should have handled it differently! First, CTH and SDAC announced. Then, after drop is closed - they announce the combo CTH+SDAC. And then - LCX. If I were wearing CEE TEE's hat - I would announce in a big campaign ALL 4 products at the same time, and let us make an informed decision. I do not believe it would have hurt their sales, and the reputation damage is not worth extra few $$.

For current LC owners:
If you were planning on selling - then yeah, you're screwed. No point in sugar coating it...
But, if you use and enjoy it - why do you care there is a cheaper alternative that came out 6 months or more after you got your amp and started enjoying it? with the MD wait, you'll have a 1+ year head-start on your daily enjoyment

BTW, personally I am still on the fence between buying a used LCv2 with some warranty still left, or get the MD LCX. I do not like the external power brick, and the 6 months wait, but do not like to pay 2x the price just because I am impatient...

 

[maheeinfy]

First, I would like to thank @runeight
But, if you use and enjoy it - why do you care there is a cheaper alternative that came out 6 months or more after you got your amp and started enjoying it? with the MD wait, you'll have a 1+ year head-start on your daily enjoyment

Remember everyone..Life has limited number of weeks. So if you enjoyed your amp for ~25 more weeks than others, then its worth it

 

[fiascogarcia]

It would be interesting to see the posts on this thread if the Massdrop LC turns out not to sound like the Cavalli model!

 

[Mentis]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

Thanks Alex for getting back to us about the LCX. Would you know if MD will drop Liquid Carbon or Liquid Gold at one point? We'd like to get our hands on those that'd be great, it'll be a good upgrade from LC1 or LC2. Thanks again,

 

[buldogge]

It would be interesting to see the posts on this thread if the Massdrop LC turns out not to sound like the Cavalli model!

Of course many people buying the LCX (myself included) will never have heard a V1 or V2 LC, would not be able to establish a frame of reference, and would therefore only be trusting the opinion/review of someone else...if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a noise?

-Mark in St. Louis

 

[abvolt]

I'm sure excited about getting the liquid carbon at that price, ordered mine on the first day about 100 before me nice, hopefully this is a decent sounding ss amp I've been wanting one for some time now..enjoy

 

[doctorjazz]

Anyone remember the warranty details on v1 and v2 of the Cavalli in house versions? I seem to recall v1 had a better one, was it transferable? Lifetime?
Thanks (seeing if there is any benefit to buyers who bought from Cavalli).

 

[snip3r77]

Is really laid back? I would like a tinge of warmness to tame my lcd X?