[Pharmaboy]

Just had another experience that makes me feel the love for my LC v2.0:

• Recently got a new pair of E-Mu Teaks. Burned them in for ~150 hrs using the LC + CD player in the garage, then had little time for listening before going on vaca
• Last night started getting re-acquainted w/the Teaks, preparing to do some pad rolling to improve their comfort. Started out on the V281, which oddly enough, the Teaks didn't sound great with (not so good bass or soundstaging). A surprise, since the V281 is my best amp and usually nails every headphone.
• Then today I started listening to the Teaks on the LC. Surprise! It's a great combination. That nuanced, deep, suave bass is back; more soundstaging, and very nice treble.
• Some might not like this pairing, since the upper treble is reduced in level and it's not a presentation for detail freaks. But the organic, relaxed quality, combined with deep bass, is pretty addictive.

The LC surprises me sometimes. It's counter-intuitive that a somewhat warm, bassy amp like the LC would "lock in" with a somewhat warrm, bassy headphone like the Teaks--but it does. It did the same w/the Fidelio X2s--a combination that would seem irrational, but man, did that sound good.

The LC is my "secret weapon" amp. Sometimes I hear things through it that just don't come through on the other amps.

BTW, re DACs, I'm a big fan of multi-bit, which to me, sound superior in every way to delta-sigma designs I've heard. My day-to-day DAC is the Audio GD NOS 19, which transformed the sound of my desktop audio system (headphones as well as powered monitors + sub). Also have an Audio GD DAC-19, which sounds pretty similar to the NOS variant, though w/a litlte more energy in upper midrange & treble (still less than many D-S designs).

 

[Levanter]

Quite a good explanation from Will @ MD regarding the MD x Cavalli Carbon issue. Some might still not be happy with the explanation, but at least they didn't keep quiet

Thanks for joining the discussion! I think it's important to clarify a couple things related to your post (and similar posts from other folks in this discussion). If anything, this explanation will probably make you more frustrated, but at least that new frustration will be directed at the right source.
You reference a two-part statement made by Alex. First, he wouldn't make any more liquid carbons. Second, he could never make anything so cheap again.
Both of these statements are accurate and Alex has kept his word. The amplifier you bought was made in the United States by Cavalli Audio, a small audiophile company headed by Alex Cavalli. The amplifier had certain inputs, outputs, components, and internal power supply. The combination was called “Cavalli Audio Liquid Carbon”.
The Massdrop x Alex Cavalli Liquid Carbon X is made by Massdrop, a larger company covering many enthusiast communities & manufacturing in China. The amplifier has the same sonic performance and specifications as the most recent Liquid Carbon revision because it shares the circuit design. However, the outputs are different, the inputs are different, the housing/form factor are different, and some components (notably the volume pot and power supply) are different.
Alex's statement is still accurate, in both parts. He has not made any more Liquid Carbons- and as far as I know, Cavalli Audio has not produced any new products at/or below the price of the two Liquid Carbon runs.
Now, while that answers questions about "Alex's Word", it's not going to make you any less frustrated. If you’re frustrated, it should be wholly-directed at Massdrop/Christian/myself. We're the ones who approached Alex and explained how we'd like to license his design work for overseas production under our brand.
If you're frustrated about the (now more) probable depreciation of a possession, feel free to shake your fist and curse us. That said, while you're cursing, consider that ~50% of purchases on Massdrop Audiophile products (Massdrop brand + collaborations) come from people with no association to the audiophile community. At this point, the K7XX has directly introduced 10,000+ people to the audiophile community, and who knows how many friends and family members beyond the purchaser themselves.
Whether it's a collaboration based on community feedback, or licensing a design for production via our infrastructure, we're making the audiophile community accessible to hundreds of thousands of new people.
More people in the community means total market size increase, means competition, and competition in a preference based industry means an increasingly rich product offering for the community members.
Is this good or bad? As someone who remembers being 13, consuming all the eye-candy head-fi had to offer, wishing I didn’t have to save so long to get something worthwhile, I think it’s a good thing, but what do you think? There’s a reason this tab is a Discussion : )

 

[Mediahound]

Quite a good explanation from Will @ MD regarding the MD x Cavalli Carbon issue. Some might still not be happy with the explanation, but at least they didn't keep quiet

Link to that?

 

[Levanter]

Link to that?

In the Cavalli Carbon MD comments page, one of the response towards someone raging.

 

[doraymon]

Has anyone tried the LC with the Holo Audio Spring DAC L3?

 

[seamon]

Alright listening to the LCv2 with LCD 4:

1) Drives it sufficiently.
2) Same musical sound signature.
3) Bass is a little floppy/flappy.
4) Somewhat dark and reduces sibilance that is present in tracks.
5) Separation is that good and so the soundstage could be better too compared to similarly priced amps($800-$1000)
6) Massdrop should just disappear.

These are strictly my observations about the LC v2 and LCD 4 and nothing else.

 

[sahmen]

Maybe Will's explanation is leaving some people unsatisfied, because it is still a half-baked explanation which leaves some of the issues raised by even Massdrop clients unaddressed : for example, the staggered, drip, drip, drop manner in which the products licensed from Cavalli are being announced, which I personally find very manipulative, although I am sure Massdrop will defend that as a business method whose main purpose is to maximize Massdrop's own returns on their investment (i.e. the profits), which is a case they can legitimately make. Still, regardless of what one thinks, it is also true that many people do not enjoy being manipulated in this way, and a method that uses "bait and switch" and other little gimmicks to forge buying practices that are likely to generate unnecessary double dipping and buyers' remorse, will most likely end up making many people unhappy and disillusioned. That is also very, very, human, but easily avoidable, with a little more transparency on the part of Massdrop.

 

[DaemonSire]

Quite a good explanation from Will @ MD regarding the MD x Cavalli Carbon issue. Some might still not be happy with the explanation, but at least they didn't keep quiet

Thanks for that quote.

Honestly, I can see both sides. "Technically" Alex didn't break his word since he isn't making them. But still, it is a slight to the community when Cavalli says they are making a cheaper product to give back to the support of the community and say it is a limited run. Then just give the design to someone else to make it cheaper and sell it as their brand. Will/Massdrop taking the blame for the anger people are feeling is honourable, but it isn't just on them. Alex knew what he was doing and is just as culpable. It isn't the fact that it has killed the resale value (which would bother me too), it's the fact that it was marketed as a limited edition, one-time only product as a thanks to the community. Then you turn around, sell the design and give the finger back to the same community that supported you.

Now, if he had licensed out his Crimson, Gold, Fire, etc., I don't think people would really be that upset. Those weren't 'limited edition' runs (they sort of were, but you know what I mean). They were boutique products that had a small run and were eventually discontinued. While Carbon was produced and targeted as a small batch and once it's gone, it's gone. It isn't surprising when you then take that same design/sound, give it to someone else to make it for less than half the price, and not expect people to be upset.

Now, on the other hand, I completely get were Massdrop is coming from and support them in this project as well. They are bringing quality goods to consumers at very reasonable prices. And are hitting a much wider audience than simply the audiophile community. They are driving the market forward and doing it at a price point that is great for us. It is going to force (hopefully!) other manufacturers to take notice of the increasing price gouging that is going on. When $800-1000 is the new "mid-fi" and we routinely see $2500+ headphones as the norm, it is getting a bit out of hand. Now we have a manufacturer that is bucking that trend. To prove my point, they could have easily charged $500-700 for the LCX and it still would have sold. And actually piss off less people since it wouldn't be killing their resale value so much. But they aren't.

Same thing with the 6XX, K7XX, THX00, etc. The 6XX has killed the 650 value to some degree; K7XX the K712/K702 65th; THX00 the TH600/TH900. But, to new-comers, it is fantastic.

Interestingly, the above collaborations (Sennheiser, AKG, Fostex, Grace), didn't trigger this response because they were never marketed as a limited edition, "when it's gone, it's gone" product like the original Carbon was. That's the problem. Hell, if the design was "copied" like Monoprice's M1060/M300, I don't think that would have bothered the community like this since it wasn't authorized. It's the fact that it was intentionally done by Cavalli that has gotten everyone up in arms.

 

[seamon]

Let's consider another another argument for a sec.
Maybe there aren't that many LC/LC2 owners to begin with that Alex Cavalli though that selling his design(probably for a good deal of money) was worth it.
IDK if LC1 and LC2 serial numbers are combined but if they are there are just around 800 units out there.

 

[runeight]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

 

[doraymon]

Thanks for that quote.

Honestly, I can see both sides. "Technically" Alex didn't break his word since he isn't making them. But still, it is a slight to the community when Cavalli says they are making a cheaper product to give back to the support of the community and say it is a limited run. Then just give the design to someone else to make it cheaper and sell it as their brand. Will/Massdrop taking the blame for the anger people are feeling is honourable, but it isn't just on them. Alex knew what he was doing and is just as culpable. It isn't the fact that it has killed the resale value (which would bother me too), it's the fact that it was marketed as a limited edition, one-time only product as a thanks to the community. Then you turn around, sell the design and give the finger back to the same community that supported you.

Now, if he had licensed out his Crimson, Gold, Fire, etc., I don't think people would really be that upset. Those weren't 'limited edition' runs (they sort of were, but you know what I mean). They were boutique products that had a small run and were eventually discontinued. While Carbon was produced and targeted as a small batch and once it's gone, it's gone. It isn't surprising when you then take that same design/sound, give it to someone else to make it for less than half the price, and not expect people to be upset.

Now, on the other hand, I completely get were Massdrop is coming from and support them in this project as well. They are bringing quality goods to consumers at very reasonable prices. And are hitting a much wider audience than simply the audiophile community. They are driving the market forward and doing it at a price point that is great for us. It is going to force (hopefully!) other manufacturers to take notice of the increasing price gouging that is going on. When $800-1000 is the new "mid-fi" and we routinely see $2500+ headphones as the norm, it is getting a bit out of hand. Now we have a manufacturer that is bucking that trend. To prove my point, they could have easily charged $500-700 for the LCX and it still would have sold. And actually piss off less people since it wouldn't be killing their resale value so much. But they aren't.

Same thing with the 6XX, K7XX, THX00, etc. The 6XX has killed the 650 value to some degree; K7XX the K712/K702 65th; THX00 the TH600/TH900. But, to new-comers, it is fantastic.

Interestingly, the above collaborations (Sennheiser, AKG, Fostex, Grace), didn't trigger this response because they were never marketed as a limited edition, "when it's gone, it's gone" product like the original Carbon was. That's the problem. Hell, if the design was "copied" like Monoprice's M1060/M300, I don't think that would have bothered the community like this since it wasn't authorized. It's the fact that it was intentionally done by Cavalli that has gotten everyone up in arms.

I agree with your point of view.
It's not a matter of legal interpretation of Mr. Cavalli's words because technically speaking he did not lie.
Most of the LC purchasers would have not expected the Massdrop move and this is not difficult to imagine.
If that's the style of the company than sorry, I'll look somewhere else for my next amp.
Without anger, unhappiness, negative vibe and bla bla bla....

 

[Shawnb]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

Why go with the same name then? If you named it Liquid Copycat, or any other name, and made clear it has the internals of the LC but it's a whole new amp. That would of negated a lot of the anger. Keeping the name led to a lot of confusion.

 

[seamon]

Why go with the same name then? If you named it Liquid Copycat, or any other name, and made clear it has the internals of the LC but it's a whole new amp. That would of negated a lot of the anger. Keeping the name led to a lot of confusion.

Probably marketing in favor of massdrop.
One of the main selling points of the LCX is that it's sonically same as Liquid Carbon. Massdrop wants people to know that through the name.

 

[scanspeakman1]

Hello gents. I see that there is some discussion about the new MD Carbon X. I'd like to give you my reasoning about this product. I know that some of you might agree and some may not.

The original LC was specifically designed as a compact, transportable, but fairly powerful amp. It is lightweight with a universal PS and totally self-contained. It can be moved around anywhere with the right power cord. Some small number of carbon owners do in fact take their carbons on overseas trips. Some just pack them up as needed. Most owners, however, based on responses to us do tend to use the carbon as mostly an easily movable desktop amp.

We have had quite a few requests for more carbons. We are not making any more of this amp. The supply of transportable carbons that is in the marketplace is all that there will ever be unless the amp is knocked off by someone else, somewhere else.

The MD carbon X, in my mind, though it shares the same audio electronics, is a different amp. Hence my willingness to let MD make them available to a broader customer set than CA can.

The LC X is most definitely a desktop amp. Is it fairly large and intended to be part of a MD stack. It will be well made, have some weight, and definitely not easily transportable. It uses an external power brick (one more thing to carry around). And, as a small thing, it doesn't have the indicator lights that the original LC does. It also doesn't have the 3.5mm nor the RSA jacks. Some number of carbon users use both of these jacks at one time or another.

My conclusion was that the MD LC X was not really the same amp as the original LC and doesn't really compete with it in the marketplace. The new LC X simply makes a nice, but bigger, heavier desktop amp, available to others in a way that CA could not.

For those of you who have the original Carbon, the 800 or so units out there are all that CA will ever make.

Hi Alex,


Despite what other people may think, I just want to thank for bringing us these great products. I am one of those carbon (v1) owners who uses it on overseas travels and loving it! It was already an amazing amp for an attractive price. Now for this new price even better! I will probably order a LC-X for the office. And I certainly hope you keep on bringing us these more affordable units (although a massdrop liquid gold-x special deluxe non-limited non-collectors edition would definitely have my attention as well!!).

Scanspeakman

 

[ilcg1]

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