[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallan /img/forum/go_quote.gif What, are you arguing about bit rate with someone who has Bose:better sound through research in his signature, you gotta be kidding!

why not? i guess it sort of proves that this forums i biased. i have never owned bose nor probably will but someone once said they would never trust anyone with bose in their signature so i put it in as honestly, why not? what does it matter anyway?

the fact that someone likes or does not like a brand does mean nothing about whether they have knowledge. i don't care if you spend 50 000,00 on a home system, it means nothing about your knowledge of sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Discussion of DBT's is confined to the Sound Science forum. It's not.

you are right: it is not hydrogenaudio. i think many people come from there because it is not as fun over there. however, by being a member and posting a lot in headfi, you suddenly have street cred. you can say what you want and people listen. or you can put things in your signature that prove you are high end or knowledgeable. whether or not headfi and hydrogenaudio are polar opposites is not the problem. the problem is that too many members here think that member ship in a forum called headfi means they know something or can rant.

i have heard people say things like: i saw this guy on the bus with er4s. i wanted to tell him has to get an amp.

there is not respect here. there are no rules for respect. there are no proofs for anything. i love this place but you can do naught but argue because no one listens to sounder science. people only listen to forum posts or sigantures.

my bose signature disqualifies me... that is great. what that proves is that this forum really knows little about anything but marketing -- the same group who say they would never buy bose or apple are the same group who are high and mighty about any little company who comes along and makes fotm. its tiring.

i ain't leaving but there is too little that actually binds us here to proof and truth.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif What? Are you doubting that silver conductors are more revealing than copper? How closed-minded of you.

Yes, let's discuss that now.

This thread started out with a simple question about whether people could hear a difference between lossy and lossless. If you read the first page, you can see that it was a very civil and focused discussion. Some people said yes. Some people said no.

Then, you had to intervene to advance your agenda. Since then, you've responded in the most argumentative fashion by (1) telling everyone that only 1% of the people who claimed they could hear a difference could actually hear it (post #16); (2) suggesting that someone who shared his experience with testing was a liar, or delusional (post #33); (3) starting the discussion of blind tests, in contravention of the forum rules (post #43); (4) implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is basically an idiot (post #75); and (5) introducing the interconnect issue in a further attempt to ridicule people who claim to hear differences between items that you don't think can influence sound (post #82).

Dude, you obviously have "issues." Why can't you just offer the opinion that you don't think people can tell a difference between lossy and lossless, or that you can't hear a difference, and leave it at that? Why do you feel compelled to insist, in the most arrogant way, that there is only one way to look at this, and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a fool? Is it really necessary for you to do this on this forum?

 

[dallan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif why not? i guess it sort of proves that this forums i biased. i have never owned bose nor probably will but someone once said they would never trust anyone with bose in their signature so i put it in as honestly, why not? what does it matter anyway? the fact that someone likes or does not like a brand does mean nothing about whether they have knowledge. i don't care if you spend 50 000,00 on a home system, it means nothing about your knowledge of sound.

Good luck selling off your duct taped ultrasones, i have a pair too, i don't use them, i let my daughter, to hard to hear the detailed differences between low bit rate and lossless...ya know how that is, bitrate doesn't matter to my friends with earbuds, heck i can't even hear the difference with 'em.

Edit-Oh and look, more got added up there with an edit--guess someone just needed to rant more.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif however, by being a member and posting a lot in headfi, you suddenly have street cred. you can say what you want and people listen. or you can put things in your signature that prove you are high end or knowledgeable. whether or not headfi and hydrogenaudio are polar opposites is not the problem. the problem is that too many members here think that member ship in a forum called headfi means they know something or can rant. i have heard people say things like: i saw this guy on the bus with er4s. i wanted to tell him has to get an amp. there is not respect here. there are no rules for respect. there are no proofs for anything. i love this place but you can do naught but argue because no one listens to sounder science. people only listen to forum posts or sigantures.

I hear what you're saying, and I think there is some truth to what you say, but I think you're overstating it quite a bit. Most people here are not fools and are able to separate good advice from someone who demonstrates some knowledge as opposed to someone who just is spouting off on an internet forum.

Anyway, there is a place here where "proof" of the kind you prefer is discussed. And people know that. If they want to read about it, they can go there. Or they can go to hydrogen audio. If they don't go to those places, presumably they don't care, or they've already determined what they believe, or maybe they are, in fact, fools. I suppose we can't rule out that possibility. But you really shouldn't worry about saving people from themselves -- if you think that's more or less what you are doing. Life's too short. And it's also a little bit presumptuous.

 

[shigzeo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dallan /img/forum/go_quote.gif Good luck selling off your duct taped ultrasones, i have a pair too, i don't use them, i let my daughter, to hard to hear the detailed differences between low bit rate and lossless...ya know how that is, bitrate doesn't matter to my friends with earbuds, heck i can't even hear the difference with 'em. Edit-Oh and look, more got added up there with an edit--guess someone just needed to rant more.

after all this time i am still learning how to multi quote, so i make a post, then look for the other quote i wanted to use. not graceful but it works for me.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Ad hominem argurements contribute nothing so I won't respond to the multiple mischaracterizations of what I've said, except one: I never called anyone a fool. I did suggest that they might be mistaken, but merely being mistaken and being a fool are two very different things. A fool isn't one who doesn't know the truth, a fool is someone who doesn't want to know the truth.

I will take your advice and be more mindful of how I present my views, but that diversion has nothing to do with the core issue of subjectivism vs. objectivism. It would be better if we could all be more mindful of our tone as we state our opinions (a little pot calling the kettle black there?) but like it or not there's simply no way to have a meaningful discussion concerning this thread topic without including an objectivist viewpoint. It's kind of like having a discussion of the origin of life while banning any discussion of evolution... you can eliminate whatever core elements you want from the discussion by fiat if you like but in the end doing so just makes the entire discussion irrelevant.

As to the comments about lecturing, prosyletizing, 'agenda', etc... many of the regulars here certainly do know how to separate the wheat from the chaff but this forum isn't just for regulars... there are also a lot of newbies asking for advice. I think it would be a great disservice to them to not include a rounded picture. In the end they'll take away what they can and... everything will be OK.

 

[shigzeo]

agreed. there is little, far too little good advice given from both sides or if there are more than 2 sides, from 3 or more in this forum. it needs to happen.

funny though: if this were a creation argument, we would all be supporting creation myths versus evolution. but im getting out of here. phils you are right: time is too short to bother with this. i took up argument for many reasons.

one being that the truth is that very very few if anyone at headfi does abx with properly set up tests and too many people say they can not only hear a difference where they probably should not, but there are too many recommendations and preaching with portable equipment too on the same basis.

in 2006-7, i took some advices based on people here at headfi for portable equipment and ended up spending 500$ i should never have spent: that money does not come back... will never come back. i could have gone down to a local canada computer and maybe heard the device for myself but did not... everyone said it was amazing anyway. i think i was the first or one of the first to vocalise my discontent with it. i said: bad soundstage and bass roll combined for headaches with trance music. i was ridiculed for that as it is the perfect dap.

finally, when a few people finally spoke up that they too did not like it and after i sold the unit, there was some other opinion but it was still opinion and we 'were wrong' because most people here said it was the best sq player.

then hardware tests came out and other people in forums that support the study of hardware not the religifying of it. as far as i know, only in headfi where we don't take opinions and study, but take loud voices is it still 'best ever' status.

the reason people maybe did not hear the difference here: they are not allowed to. there are too many public lynchings here when people speak up an opposite opinion right or wrong. way too many. but then there are way too many opinions that are not backed up at all with any science... just with fanboisms. i wont participate in this argument anymore but i will end by saying, that 500$ will not come back for me and for probably many other people.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

I cannot tell the difference @ -V4 (maybe it's because of my avatar and where my head is at) but I run @ -V1 for peace of mind.
If lossless and expensive cables increase one's enjoyment of the music more power to them. It's a hobby after all.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a hobby after all.

Exactamundo!!!

 

[Telix]

Today I put on a V2 MP3, a q6 OGG, and a FLAC of two albums, but they weren't nearly the right kind of music I wanted to use for testing. I haven't had time to transcode more ogg's of some of my benchmarks. Once I do some of my Chesky recordings I'll ask my workmate to help me a/b/x test them.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telix /img/forum/go_quote.gif Today I put on a V2 MP3, a q6 OGG, and a FLAC of two albums, but they weren't nearly the right kind of music I wanted to use for testing. I haven't had time to transcode more ogg's of some of my benchmarks. Once I do some of my Chesky recordings I'll ask my workmate to help me a/b/x test them.

That's great, please let us know your results. BTW you can download free programs like PCABX or Foobar 2000 that will let you do blind testing on your own, without a helper.

 

[shigzeo]

indeed, it is better to follow tester apps like the one for foobar. also, if those files are not normalised to the exact volume, then you will have trouble again: the loudest will sound best.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's great, please let us know your results.

Yes, please post your findings -- on the Sound Science forum.

 

[paaj]

I love these threads

I think lossless sounds better, but most likely couldn't tell it apart from properly encoded AAC/MP3...

it's just like wine, a prettier bottle makes it taste better (I think that's proven btw)

 

[younglee200]

^ what he said

I don't think my ears can really tell the difference from my DAP but it does sound slightly better because I know it's lossless and my subconsciousness tells me that it SHOULD sound better.