[castleofargh]

IMO the need for perfect level matching is more for beginners who aren't able to do a real qualitative comparison and will prefer the louder sound. But if you know what specifics to listen for, small volume differences aren't really going to change that.

Sure, let’s perpetuate bad practice with justifications that appeal to our ego. That's really helpful.

- Hey kids! Want to know for sure that 2 devices sound different? Don’t forget to keep one louder, and you too can become a professional reviewer with plenty to say!

 

[hakunamakaka]

Sure, let’s perpetuate bad practice with justifications that appeal to our ego. That's really helpful.

- Hey kids! Want to know for sure that 2 devices sound different? Don’t forget to keep one louder, and you too can become a professional reviewer with plenty to say!

Relax bro, dunno why you need to push this place to be hostile... not everyone has equipment to do a proper volume matching. For my own personal interest I did the blind test using just A8000 IEM's and switching between DAP, Mac and desktop setup. As I couldn't do a proper volume match my gf would purposefully make one source louder than the other. It was difficult to switch between 3 sources, but things got easy when I was left with two options and being able to identify each source prior the blind test. Each time the "source was changed" there was a few secs silence gap to simulate the swap between source even if it didn't happen. Every time I was able to identify desktop setup correctly. So If there was no actually difference shouldn't I make some mistakes when my mac was playing louder guessing it's a desktop setup ? My desktop setup in specs is audibly transparent, but somehow sounds better.

To go even further I tried to do the similar test with taste involved. Two coffees with different beans were ordered, I let my misses try both and she confirmed she taste the difference, but during the blind try i gave her only one type of coffee and switched only in last round. She was switching between coffee types while I was giving her the same and guessed the last one incorrectly.

It just shows that blind test when we are unfamiliar and there is little difference is very prone to errors. There will always be "voodo magic" in audio, but DAC's themselves can differ a lot especially if you look into tube, r2r designs. Heck I heard the difference between my DS ones. Where human perception is involved you can't get fully rational as with computers and claim this is what you need while the rest is either bad or makes no difference. What is bad & good will vary from folk to folk and "true artists intentions" can be achieved various ways with different signatures, but if you want to hear exactly what they heard than only option is to live with them in studios

 

[IanB52]

Sure, let’s perpetuate bad practice with justifications that appeal to our ego. That's really helpful.

- Hey kids! Want to know for sure that 2 devices sound different? Don’t forget to keep one louder, and you too can become a professional reviewer with plenty to say!

Maybe it was a bit of an arrogant statement, but it should be obvious that volume is one specific dimension of a sound, and there are many others. Reducing the whole thing to a single variable is going to be most useful for those not able to identify specific differences.

Yes, level matched is ideal and more accurate, but especially if you are going to buy something you need to be able to respond to things other than loudness.

 

[AnalogEuphoria]

Maybe it was a bit of an arrogant statement, but it should be obvious that volume is one specific dimenension of a sound, and there are many others. Reducing the whole thing to a single variable is going to be most useful for those not able to identify specific differences.

Yes, level matched is ideal and more accurate, but especially if you are going to buy something you need to be able to respond to things other than loudness.

Its far easier to listen with your eyes than with your ears.

 

[TheFrator]

If all DACs sound the same, then the apple dongle should sound the same as the Mojo 2. But it just doesn't. Listen to the intro to Reflection by Tool on an IEM through the dongle, and all the drums will overlap and come through the center- which just isn't the case in the recording. On the Mojo all pieces of the drum kit are in a different spot in the sound stage. I wish I didn't hear a difference and could save some money.

 

[esmse]

Its not what you have but what you do with it. Only looking at the D/A chip to determine quality of a DAC is forgetting that the D/A chip is only 1 part of a very complex design. The other parts and the design decisions have a much bigger impact. It would be like saying CD-transports with philips drive are the best and all sound the same while there are both low and high end models using this and reality is that they offer a very different experience.

 

[Sampajanna]

Using science to gauge equipment for enjoying music is like measuring pigment density to evaluate paintings or chemical analysis to choose your dish at a restaurant. Sure, testing can be a useful factor at the time of purchasing, especially if the engineering is flawed, but the whole mindset is misguided and leads away from enjoyment. It is at odds with the purpose of music and with joy…Hence the kill-joys who occasionally leave Audio Science Rancor to come here and harass those of us enjoying our music…

Look at the poll above. It says everything.

 

[castleofargh]

Using science to gauge equipment for enjoying music is like measuring pigment density to evaluate paintings or chemical analysis to choose your dish at a restaurant. Sure, testing can be a useful factor at the time of purchasing, especially if the engineering is flawed, but the whole mindset is misguided and leads away from enjoyment. It is at odds with the purpose of music and with joy…Hence the kill-joys who occasionally leave Audio Science Rancor to come here and harass those of us enjoying our music…

Look at the poll above. It says everything.

I would argue that you strawmaning about enjoyment in a thread that clearly asks the question of audibility, or your obsession for ASR, are more detrimental to the thread than the few of us wishing to answer the initial question with a little more accuracy.

BTW I voted yes. There is no option about the rate of occurrence, so from ”it happened only once” to ”I always get a difference”, all should end up as yes votes.

 

[hakunamakaka]

Anyways these debates are like blowing against the wind. Such threads will die and re-occur going in same circles as many others before. Some gets bored and goes on with their lives while others enjoys this repetitive entertainment

 

[AnalogEuphoria]

Make a poll on how many people have seen a ghost and some will say they have but it doesn't mean they have, my point is there are many variables to why sound maybe be slightly different, line out voltage or low power / output impedance in regards to a combo unit etc but doesn't mean the actual DA conversion is changing the sound quality. When you remove those variables and level match 2 DACs then watch all your misconceptions disappear. Ive said it before I was the same I could swear that I easily heard a difference between DACs but I was imagining it, I did a test with Modi3 and Qutest and even sighted I couldn't tell them apart.

Why are people so afraid to test for themselves? for me it was good to know at the end of it all pretty much any well designed converter will sound transparent and produce music faithfully without any magic sauce needed.

 

[hakunamakaka]

And my point is that you care too much to prove something in a subjective hobby like this. It just shows that some of you loves arguing more than music itself

 

[Corti]

Why are people so afraid to test for themselves? for me it was good to know at the end of it all pretty much any well designed converter will sound transparent and produce music faithfully without any magic sauce needed.

They are afraid because it takes away a big part of their hobby, which is looking for “more better, more resolving (and whatever)” gear. The longer they kept believing in it, the harder it is to acknowledge that they were fooled by marketing. So they keep on doing it, because their egos are bigger than their ability to reason and to accept facts. This basic human flaw has been exploited in all sorts of consumer fields. Nothing new there, and unfortunately it wont change because it is how capitalism works and what the idea of infinite economic growth relies on.

But sooner rather than later we will run out of (planetary) resources and that’s when people have to start changing their minds.

 

[AnalogEuphoria]

And my point is that you care too much to prove something in a subjective hobby like this. It just shows that some of you loves arguing more than music itself

Ridiculous statement, I love music as much as the next person in here. People who don't hear differences are allowed to comment as well...

 

[Cuthbert 80]

They are afraid because it takes away a big part of their hobby, which is looking for “more better, more resolving (and whatever)” gear. The longer they kept believing in it, the harder it is to acknowledge that they were fooled by marketing. So they keep on doing it, because their egos are bigger than their ability to reason and to accept facts. This basic human flaw has been exploited in all sorts of consumer fields. Nothing new there, and unfortunately it wont change because it is how capitalism works and what the idea of infinite economic growth relies on.

But sooner rather than later we will run out of (planetary) resources and that’s when people have to start changing their minds.

Hi @Corti

I really like the idea of blind testing/level matching different DAC's to remove any confirmation biases. I don't have the equipment to do this but I think it's a great way to scientifically look for differences.

I have a Gustard X16 DAC and recently upgraded to the X18 which costed significantly more. (My amp is a Gustard H16)

With the X16 DAC it was good but I was missing something. I heavily increased the treble area from around 4khz - 7khz via parametic EQ. This sounded a lot more pleasing to me and was near my ideal "sound signature".

Fast forward to a year and 3 months later after the X16...I upgraded and purchased the X18 as mentioned. I let the X18 "burn in" a little and when I finally got around to listening to it properly with the same amp (Gustard H16)...IMMEDIATELY I noticed that the treble was more extended...with the added bonus of significantly better imaging and a deeper stage (subjectively of course). The treble extention on the X18 was so apparent to my ears...I had no reason to EQ the treble on it like I had been used to on my older previous X16 that I've been using for well over a year.

I cannot scientifically prove to you that there are differences because, as I previously mentioned....I don't have the kit for it.

Do you think these differences are real or is this just all in my head?

BTW, I'm still a noob at this head-fi hobby and have been into it for only 2 years so I'm not gonna pretend like I have much knowledge compared to so many peeps on here lol

 

[SLAFL]

I can hear the difference between different DACs very easily... but you actually have to look for certain distortions.... for instance, I have a track that apparently has a microphone pop (some cable issue during recording) and that sounds different.
It is much harder to hear difference on actual music. my 2 cents/