[tim3320070]

Quote:

I mean, take f.i. the REF5; looks good, but I'll have to buy XLR-cables to, together I'll pay almost twice as much as the DAC19, worth it, and what to expect?

You don't have to do anything of the sort- put your money into the best DAC/amp/speaker combo you can (good speakers/headphones are most important by far) and worry about cables last. I made XLR cables from Mogami cable and Neutrik plugs for about $20 running my Phoenix/ REF-1/Emotiva XPA-2-> speakers. Spending hundreds on cables for mild tonal differences is nuts IMO. You can use Kingwa's stock cables to great success.
Anyone who says that a Ref-5/DAC19 with snake oil expensive interconnects will sound better than a REF-1/REF-7 with stock AGD cables is brain washed.

 

[sk3383]

I owned both the DAC-19DSP & DAC-3SE. I listened to both of these DACs connected to studio monitor speakers which have very flat signatures.
 
The DAC-19DSP has a very flat response throughout all bands. It has great extension on both frequency extremes. Very detailed and transparent. Bass is deep and powerful with great control. I felt the overal sound character was slightly digital, almost as if the sound lacked substance, realism. When listening to the DAC-19DSP I was always impressed at the detail, coherence and transparency but I never felt emotionally involved in the music.
 
Edit: However I do not believe a DAC should make itself known, in theory its up to the amplifier, headphones and/or speakers to create that "emotional involvement".
 
The DAC-3SE is attention grabbing. Very natural and also has a flat response. It does however possess some slight emphasis/forwardness within the mid band frequencies. Voices are scary realistic. The very top frequencies seemed slightly blanketed by the mid range, or possibly slightly rolled off early in comparisn to the DAC-19DSP. The 3SE never sounds fatiguing but on electronic music I could notice the slight roll off in the highs. Low end frequencies sounded more natural and realistic but slightly lacked impact. I should note that my DAC-3SE only had 75-100 hours on it. Kingwa recommends 400 hours. This DAC was getting noticeably better with burn-in. I regret selling it before hearing its true potential.
 
If you are looking for a DAC that reproduces the source as close to the original recording as possible the DAC-19DSP is the ideal choice between the two. It gives the end user a chance to color the sound to his/her taste with amplifiers/headphones/speakers.
 
The DAC-3SE uses the PMD-100 digital filter. This filter is described as being warm, mid centric.
 
The DAC-3SE also uses a Diamond Buffer which Kingwa describes as being warm sounding to his ears.
 
Now a designer can take a filter such as the PMD100 and make it sound completely neutral by using components and circuit design that negate the "warm" signature. e.g. DAC-9MKIII
 
In the case of the DAC-3SE I believe Kingwa intended the end user to hear the filter as it was designed by using a circuit with components that brought out the beauty of the PMD100 filter.
 
I think the DSP1 filter is very natural/neutral sounding by design. This is just an assumption. The Reference 8 & 9 might have the best of both worlds. Meaning Diamond Buffer + the natural/neutral sound of the DSP1. I do believe Kingwa states on his website that the Reference 8 & 9 sound warm but detailed.
 
I would love to hear the Reference 8 or 9.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

RE5 or RE9 but if you can swing it the RE1 or RE7. Any one of those will give you digital that sounds like great analog with zero listening fatigue (provided your amp isn't to blame for the listening fatigue which is centered around the 3Khz region FWIW).
 
Peete.

 

[shogo33]

 
Quote:

The DAC-3SE is attention grabbing. Very natural and also has a flat response. It does however possess some slight emphasis/forwardness within the mid band frequencies. Voices are scary realistic. The very top frequencies seemed slightly blanketed by the mid range, or possibly slightly rolled off early in comparisn to the DAC-19DSP. The 3SE never sounds fatiguing but on electronic music I could notice the slight roll off in the highs. Low end frequencies sounded more natural and realistic but slightly lacked impact. I should note that my DAC-3SE only had 75-100 hours on it. Kingwa recommends 400 hours. This DAC was getting noticeably better with burn-in. I regret selling it before hearing its true potential.
 
The DAC-3SE uses the PMD-100 digital filter. This filter is described as being warm, mid centric.  
The DAC-3SE also uses a Diamond Buffer which Kingwa describes as being warm sounding to his ears.
 
Now a designer can take a filter such as the PMD100 and make it sound completely neutral by using components and circuit design that negate the "warm" signature. e.g. DAC-9MKIII
 
In the case of the DAC-3SE I believe Kingwa intended the end user to hear the filter as it was designed by using a circuit with components that brought out the beauty of the PMD100 filter.

I've noticed similar traits with my Dac3SE.  Voices, especially with Holly Cole and Diana Krall (close mic recordings) thier voices are eeriely realistic.  I dont mind the slight rolloff of the highs, but that said, your're not missing out much.  Lows and deep bass is however, not as pronounced but it is natural and tight.  This dac although Kingwa says its more forgiving of poor recordings, however, depending upon your amp and speaker combo, in my case, its still quite revealing, and as such recordings like 'Best of U2 Singles' sounded very brash (probably poor quality recording)..  I've done around 100hrs now and yes the sound does improve over burn in period.  Also, its best to warm up this dac thoroughly as the sound is much better after running it for a few (1-2)hours of warming up.

 

[dura]

Wow, a lot of very relevant answers here, exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you very much, I'll carefully consider and surely I'm not the only one who is confused by Kingwa's large catalogue and will find help in this tread.
I love the way the 3 seems to do female vocals as described by Sk3383 and Shogo33, one of my favorite genres.
The 3 itself like the 9, are huge machines, I'll have to think of a way to fit them into my rack, or space reasons alone will push me towards the 19 or 5.
I'll take my time considering what has been said here and surely things will get clearer.
 

 

[mafaldich]

Hi dura,
 
Just curious in your experience how long does it take to start feeling "dull" about havana? Does the situation happen to all tubes? I have been using it for about two months now but really satisfied with the sound esp. with jw 2c51. I actually plan to get a jw6386, based on your and other people's previous posts on the havana thread. So what is your idea about jj6386 now? Is it worth the money? If its performance regresses soon, maybe I should not consider it.
And have you ever felt a tube become "live" again, when you switch it back? Or do you mean when a tube becomes dull, it is dull ever since.
 
Thanks and sorry for off the topic.
 
 
Quote:

Well, the Havana is sold.
Weird DAC; at first I absolutely loved it but it seems to slowly get more and more dull by the day; changing the tubes helps for a few days (doesn't have to be a new tube, just changing, why?), but then it slowly gets more and more laid back again. I'm sure it is not just me, sound stage has clearly gotten more recessed on my speakerbased system.
 
I'm also realising I do not particularly care for laid back sound or rolled-of treble; I like smoothness and  just hate the artifical piercing highs and flawed tonality that many digital devices give, R2R-conversion is perhaps what I'm looking for
Audio-GD seems to be the way to go now, but what type?
I'm inclined to the DAC19DSP now, but the REF3, REF5 and REF9 sound very attractive too...wish I could get more impressions from people that heart them side by side...
I mean, take f.i. the REF5; looks good, but I'll have to buy XLR-cables to, together I'll pay almost twice as much as the DAC19, worth it, and what to expect?
Or should I realise that better is the enemy of good, and just go for the 19...

 

[dura]

Hi Mafaldich, it is hard to say, because it seems to happen so slowly and the effect is so subtile.
I don't understand what happens, but certainly, the tubes are not old are after a few months, and I felt that changing back to a tube previously used brought back some life.
However, though I'm certain something happens in the DAC or tube too, most of it is me gradually changing from being very happy to have gotten rid of digital nasties to getting a little bit bored with the too laid back sound.
The 6386 is rather expensive, it depends on your taste; the added smoothness could be what you wish for or not.
I like to repeat here that my main objection to the havana was is very laid back sound stage on my speaker based system; on headphones this would probably not have been a problem.
So if your satisfied with your havana, just replace the tube every few months with another tube (previously used) when you feel like you can use some change, and enjoy.

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

Hi, I'm looking for a new DAC and it seems to me Audio-GD makes some very good ones.
Right now I'm wrestling through all the Audio-GD treads, but I fail to get a clear picture of what to expect, sound signature wise.
And there are so many different DACs to choose from, in the same pricerange.
I'm also interesting in the differences, especially musical vs neutral.
 
 
At the moment I'm listening to the MHDT Havana.
I absolutely love the very natural tonality, but it is a little bit too much of a good thing; there is no forward projection and the sound is so smooth and laid back that music looses the ability to grab me.
I mainly listen to my speaker based system (see sign, if my first preference was headphones things would probably be different and I would keep the Havana).
 
I like sound a little bit on the warm side, with some projection of the voice in acoustic recordings.
Otoh, I also listen to electronic music were frequency extremes are more important.
If not for convenience, I would probably own a vinyl system, since I'm completely allergic to 'digital' sound, the unreal hard incisive treble, which is why I like the tube sound of the Havana, but it is too much of a good thing.
Before this I had a Rega Apollo CDP, which despite its tonal flaws I also loved because it did have a pleasing, non-analytical sound. I seemed to hate pretty much all other digital players I could afford.
 
Kingwa's musical DACs seem to offer what I'm looking for, but I'm not opposed to a more neutral sound, as long as it lets the music flow.
Budget is limited to about €1200,-  but it doesn't have to be in the upper rang of my budget.
Right now I'm torn between the DAC19DSP, DAC3-SE and the reference 9.
(The reference 5 might be interesting too, since my amp has balanced-ins. But balanced is not a must-have, since I own some RCA-cables I love).
 
So please, give me your advice and share personal experiences which are very welcome to help me make up my mind.

I have noticed that most Asian gear is voiced to be laid back and neutral. Can't speak about the audio gd stuff though. Also I remember reading that the Mhdt dacs greatly benefit from a good quality low jitter transport. Anyway for that budget, you could get an excellent one box player such as the Lector CD-7T on the used market. The sound of that player came very close to my vinyl setup.

 

[dura]

You are absolutely right, I think my Havana wasn't paired optimally by using the Squeezebox Classic as a transport, appearantly it has very jittery and poluted digital signal.
I should have mentioned that too to avoid that people wrongly condemn the Havana, of which I will keep a positive impression. 
After having experienced the joys of HD-based software I've stored all my CDs and DVDs and disctransports are a nono now in my house, sóóo 20th century.

One more reason to look for a DSP-DAC van Audio-GD, it seems the DSP-filter is very good.
Interesting point about Asian DAC's but probably too general to be useful, f.i. the Korean Stello DACs are often described as being very forward.

 

[kunalraiker]

I would receommend a balanced audio gd DAC similar to ref 5 or higher since you have a balaced amp.

 

[dura]

Quote:

I would receommend a balanced audio gd DAC similar to ref 5 or higher since you have a balaced amp.

I am looking in that direction.
Problem is that there are hardly any describtions of the REF5 sound signature and I'm a little afraid it is an even more, how shall I put it, determinded sounding DAC then the DAC19. Looking at the sound signature descriptions I tend towards the REF3, or the REF9, but both are so enormous they do not really fit in my rack.
Back to the REF5, what can I expect going form unbalanced to balanced?
More dynamics, more transparance I sometimes hear. But does this really add to musical joy? After all, the REF5 (plus XLR-cables) is almost twice as expensive as the DAC19.

 

[haloxt]

If you're aiming for musicality more than faithful detail I would definitely go with a musical dac, or else a neutral dac+musical amp. Leave the ref 8 or 9 sitting on its side on the floor if your rack has no space . If you do that make sure you give it support on both sides so it doesn't fall over.
 
Imo what balanced does is give greater clarity and more controlled, present and fast microdetail. I like single-ended's hazy warmth in ambience or microdetail more sometimes.

 

[mafaldich]

Thanks for your reply, dura. This is really odd. It appears tubes need some rest before they work well again, put aside psychological factors. However, when havana is switched off, the tubes should get some time off. I can't think of a good explanation either. Anyway, l hope I won't feel the same way later on.
Quote:

Hi Mafaldich, it is hard to say, because it seems to happen so slowly and the effect is so subtile.
I don't understand what happens, but certainly, the tubes are not old are after a few months, and I felt that changing back to a tube previously used brought back some life.
However, though I'm certain something happens in the DAC or tube too, most of it is me gradually changing from being very happy to have gotten rid of digital nasties to getting a little bit bored with the too laid back sound.
The 6386 is rather expensive, it depends on your taste; the added smoothness could be what you wish for or not.
I like to repeat here that my main objection to the havana was is very laid back sound stage on my speaker based system; on headphones this would probably not have been a problem.
So if your satisfied with your havana, just replace the tube every few months with another tube (previously used) when you feel like you can use some change, and enjoy.

 

[dura]

Thanks for the contribution..
However, the REF8 is really above my budget and the amp (Primare A30) definately stays, because I love it. The REF9 is interesting indeed, but placing the thing on its side...?
 
Quote:

Imo what balanced does is give greater clarity and more controlled, present and fast microdetail. I like single-ended's hazy warmth in ambience or microdetail more sometimes.

 
There is exactly why I got mixed feelings concerning going balanced.
I don't like a too controlled (that was the word I was looking for) sound, why pay more for something I might like less?

 

 

[haloxt]

Yes you could leave the ref 9 on its side, by sitting it vertically you obviously risk making it fall over, and you would be bypassing the nice feet and increasing vibration (if you believe in vibration), and you'd also probably lower heat transfer from the chassis, so blow a fan on it if needed.
 
It's hard to make audio-gd's neutral balanced gear sound "too controlled". By controlled I mean competently expressed, like how some singers use a lot of vocal modulation, you can clearly hear every up and down in the voice assuming your amp and speakers are up to task. Judging by my dac19 and dac9, I think what I like best about the pcm1704uk chip over normal dac chips is how realistically and flexibly it expresses different timbres and soundstages. Even though dac19 is not balanced, I think it does great on these things, its shortcoming is in complex/fast microdetail retrieval imo, but you hardly notice unless you have an unforgiving balanced amp.
 
For songs where the meaning is buried in complex microdetail or low volume ambience, or songs that are just totally crazy with many instruments, is where I appreciate balanced most. With single-ended the microdetail is less crystal clear and less firm/substantial, and minute shifts in notes or volume is not as obvious, and you might wonder why the musicians are being so ridiculous using such noises. For example the last song "An Angel Ameliorate" of this ambient electronic album relies primarily on minutely shifting airy background tones, and the more precise microdetail of balanced operation lets you clearly see what the musicians were getting at. The drawback, is that the song also sounds somewhat cold/cool, whereas audio-gd's rca out gives you a warmth, perhaps also due in part to their deliberately making rca out rolloff earlier than ACSS out (I read this before, don't know if it is true for all their gear).
 
This is just  128kbps, if you want the lossless version of a song in this album send me a pm, magnatune lets members share songs freely.
 
http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/fallingyou-human/