[Pricklely Peete]

My impressions are formed from listening to speakers 98% of the time. The RE1/7 series is even better through speakers than cans (because of the additional sound stage depth, clarity, timing, visceral impact and feeling, texture, timbre blah blah blah insert all relevant adjectives)...the whole ball of wax. It's anything but mid level. Don't let the price tag fool you. I had an MSB Gold Link + P1000 power base about 8 years ago and this source (CD7/RE1) absolutely destroys that well respected vintage combo. I was never quite happy with the Gold Link and kept trying different transports with it I even had 24/192 module installed on a SONY transport...that still didn't do the trick so I sold it all off and bought another one box solution for 1700USD. It was OK but lacked the final measure of truth and was colored just a little too much for my liking even though I tried to fix that with numerous tube changes (in the output buffer). Sounds like you are going through what I was going through back then. I'm done looking for a source (unless I strike it rich then it's CD7-HE/RE7-HE here I come...MAX modded of course).
 
The MSB Platinum would be a better comparison on nearly equal terms to the RE1/RE7, seriously..
 
Peete.

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

One thing I noticed going from low-fi to hi-fi in my travels as a member here was that, with low-fi, I found myself trying to balance the tone of different components to get a good musical sound.  When the Ref 1 arrived, I realised that with true high-end gear, there is none of that, there is just the music.  This is what I wanted.  You don't need warm this, forward that, or whatever, the music is just there.

I disagree, system synergy is important regardless of low or hi fi.
 
Quote:

 
No, I didn't. But I did have several tubes, and though the differences were clear, the fundamental sound signature of the Havana remained the same
I guess that NOS-architecture is too much of a good thing for me, but the tonal purity of R2R DACs is what I want to keep.

 
There is something to say for that, neither component has incisive treble, still both are clear and do not have rolled-off treble, soft dynamics or midbass bloom....well, it is just words which are inadequate to describe a sound signature.
The Kimber 8TC, now there is some bloom in that.
 
Strange, that, although I'm perfectly satisfied with the other components (after years of changing) it is so hard to find a good source.
I use to own a Rega Apollo and, despite it's clear tonal flaws, I absolutely loved that CDP. Hated  everything else digital I ever tried except the Havana.
 
The other posts slowly dissolve my preference for a warm source, I'm leaning towards the Audio-GD REF5 now.
(Though I found that new DAC that looks interesting, the Wyred4Sound DAC-1.)
 

Interesting. A friend of mine runs tube amps with his Havana and he told me the Bendix tube was a good match, every other tube he tried ended up in too much warmth. He also owns the highly regarded Zanden dac and will be selling it sometime soon. That speaks volumes to me about the Havana.
 
One thing I've noticed about those Swedish amps is that they favor a rich mid range with sweet highs. Dyns are known for their mid range warmth and smooth highs as well. Ever hear a Dyn and Focal side by side? If so, you can tell the coloration of the Dyn immediately. Same with the Primare. Put it side by side with a Pass amp and you will notice the coloration of the Primare. I've never heard the Primare partnered with Dyn but I can imagine it is very pleasing although far from neutral.

 
Quote:

Seems like a strange question to ask why kingwa would put in extra transformers. I mean if it gives better sonics, then why not?
 
FWIW, i'm using the lil dynaudio BM5As with a rythmik f12 sub and they sound amazing with the AG dac9mk3 + c39 pre.

 
If you're looking for really deep bass, especially for the type of electronic music you listen to, you'll probably get that more from a proper sub than the dac, since the 122s are rated to 41hz, IMO not what i would consider low enough for electronic music, though i could be wrong.
 
That said, the dac definitely plays a *huge* part in getting deep, clean and textured bass.
 

I agree 100%

 

[dura]

Again, lots of food for thought, I'll digest it and let it become a part of me, thank you.
 
About the dyn 122 going to 41Hz; that is correct.
In fact that is one of the reasons I bought them.
I used to have these very large DIY speakers with Vifa units reaching 20 hz; spectacular!
Then I changed the floor from carpet to laminated and suddenly there was that big bass boom hanging in the room and destroying all sense of rhythm and speed, making music unlistenable.
So no subwoofer for me; I tried one  but back was the boom. And room treatment with large basstraps and so goes a little bit to far for me; I want to room to look as if someone normal lives in it

.
Calling the Dyns and the Primare warm...I don't know; they very certainly are not cold or analytical, nor lean in the bass or midbass, I once heart the Primare being described as cool and creamy, the dyns are often described as controlled and polite...But again, just words.
 
About the Havana/Bendix; I feel sorry I didn't try that combination reading the description of the sq. But it was not the over warm sound that turned me away from the Havana, I kind of liked that.
It was the complete lack of depth and projection , the very recessed sound stage and I think that has more to do with the NOS-architecture then with the amp, but I could be wrong. Too late now... 
 
Still a little bit unsure about what audio-gd I'll get; I could start with the 19; if I get the taste of it it could easily be sold for a good price here since it has an excellent reputation (here, the rest of the world seems unaware of the existence of audio-gd).
The ref1 and ref7 are above budget right now.
But I could stretch to the ref5, which seems to be seen as an upgraded balanced version of the 19.
Pity there are hardly reviews or SQ-impression to be found it seems.
 
I've got a question about balanced; what is the difference of balanced vs unbalanced for the amp.
Is half the circuit being left unused, or, in other words can I expect a huge jump in sound quality amp wise? Because, if so, going balanced would make more sense as an investment. Otoh, if, as I suspect, the poweramp is wholly used no matter what, going from the 19 to the ref5 will still be  beneficial,  but the jump in sound will mainly be what you can expect going from a €650,- to a €1050,- DAC.  But if there are big benefits on the ampside to the jump in SQ will be bigger.
 
Edit: I found this: http://ravenda.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/audiogd-reference5/
Excellent: a comparison between the 19MK3 and the REF5 ánd a comparison between the W4S DAC-1 (in which I was interested too) and the REF5. The REF5 is clearly preferred with convincing arguments above the DAC-1. That settles it for me, especially the remarks about tonality. The REF5 seems to do everything the 19 does but more so.
I think he is a member here too btw.
 
Update: it got clear enough now, I just ordered the REF5!
Again, thank you all for taking the time to give well meant and well informed advices, the insights provided were very enlightening. Speaking for myself, further posts are welcome. Once the REF5 gets here I'll post my impressions.

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

Again, lots of food for thought, I'll digest it and let it become a part of me, thank you.
 
About the dyn 122 going to 41Hz; that is correct.
In fact that is one of the reasons I bought them.
I used to have these very large DIY speakers with Vifa units reaching 20 hz; spectacular!
Then I changed the floor from carpet to laminated and suddenly there was that big bass boom hanging in the room and destroying all sense of rhythm and speed, making music unlistenable.
So no subwoofer for me; I tried one  but back was the boom. And room treatment with large basstraps and so goes a little bit to far for me; I want to room to look as if someone normal lives in it

.
Calling the Dyns and the Primare warm...I don't know; they very certainly are not cold or analytical, nor lean in the bass or midbass, I once heart the Primare being described as cool and creamy, the dyns are often described as controlled and polite...But again, just words.
 
About the Havana/Bendix; I feel sorry I didn't try that combination reading the description of the sq. But it was not the over warm sound that turned me away from the Havana, I kind of liked that.
It was the complete lack of depth and projection , the very recessed sound stage and I think that has more to do with the NOS-architecture then with the amp, but I could be wrong. Too late now... 
 

 
I've got a question about balanced; what is the difference of balanced vs unbalanced for the amp.
Is half the circuit being left unused, or, in other words can I expect a huge jump in sound quality amp wise? Because, if so, going balanced would make more sense as an investment. Otoh, if, as I suspect, the poweramp is wholly used no matter what, going from the 19 to the ref5 will still be  beneficial,  but the jump in sound will mainly be what you can expect going from a €650,- to a €1050,- DAC.  But if there are big benefits on the ampside to the jump in SQ will be bigger.
 

 
Update: it got clear enough now, I just ordered the REF5!
Again, thank you all for taking the time to give well meant and well informed advices, the insights provided were very enlightening. Speaking for myself, further posts are welcome. Once the REF5 gets here I'll post my impressions.

Hmmm a change of flooring will definitely have that effect. You are correct bout the Dyns being described as polite which equates to laid back. Again with the Primare, creamy would equate to rich/warm. But as you said, all just words.
 
I think it was probably how the Havana was voiced to sound, laid back. Which in turn, made a bad match in your system. Or, it could have been an impedance issue. Or, it could have been both, which would have lead to a very boring sound. I can tell you that a NOS dac can be very involving with plenty of depth and projection. When I was speaking about the Asian gear in general, perhaps I should have used a better word, such as bland. Nothing really stands out and grabs my attention.
 
About the balanced question, the answer is the same. The Primare uses balanced circuitry so you can expect a lower noise floor, which should ultimately lead to improvements in everything. Whether the improvement be large or small will be up to your ears.
 
If you prefer a presentation that is more up front, then I'm not sure if you will like the audio-gd stuff. But then again, I've never heard the stuff myself so I can't say for sure. Either way, looking forward to your impressions when your audio-gd dac arrives.
 
I forgot to ask, do you have a power conditioner? IMO a power conditioner is absolutely crucial for getting rid of the digital nasties.

 

[tim3320070]

Let us know- you got some seriously helpful info here.

 

[Nada]

I've got the RE5 feeding Dynaudio Focus 220 speakers and I'm very happy. I would not call my Dyn's polite. I think they are articulate and engaging. They don't get pushy or forward thank goodness. I think the REF5 might be a touch on the laid back warm side. Its a good combination to my ears with fine imaging and for me a palpable sense of solidity. Of course different Dyn's, different amps, different rooms, different brain = radically different experience.

 

[dura]

Thank you all.
Computerparts (this nick gives me weird associations): well put; the Havana was extremely laid back; due to the d'appolito architecture of the Dyn 122s almost every thing is projected especially left-to-right but also in front; the Havana was extreme; no depth at all! I know my amp/cable/speaker system very well an d have heart it with lots of sources,  If the source has any spatial information, my system will show it.
I've confidence the REF5  will not be flat, even my Squeezebox Classic analogue outs aren't flat, and that sounds like a <€150 dis player.
Nada, thanks, I'm feeling a little bit uncertain, to me the REF5 is not exactly cheap...glad the combination with dyns works our at least in your system. BTW, don't you love dyns? They are insensitive and need a lot of clean power, but feed it and you get rewarded with a very,very balanced sound.

 

[Pricklely Peete]

Dura,
 
You are a perfect candidate for electronic room correction processing. It takes up a single rack space and does it very good job. The biggest offenders as far as sound wave room interaction is concerned are in the 200 hz and under band. Once you notch out the excited room modes the bass can be brought under control. Some tasteful (IE WAF measures) can certainly be added in the form of a decent rug (under the speakers ) at the first floor reflection point, same with the side walls...a tapestry strategically placed on the side reflection points will get your sense of sound stage back. The back wall (opposite the system location) can house book shelves ( perfect diffusers). With careful decorating and sensible placement of room furniture you can make that system sing while at the same time having it look the way your better half wants it to (there has to be some compromise of course). Such measures can make a substantial difference while remaining pleasing to the eye.
 
There are many many ways to control a room's unwanted acoustic properties so don't give up, experiment, do research etc.... Since you've swapped to hardwood flooring you've likely now got a very lively room. That can be both a curse and godsend depending on what furniture etc is in that room, in any event it's far better to be working with a lively room than a dead one. Consider yourself lucky in that regard.
 
Peete.
 
 

 

[computerparts]

Quote:

Thank you all.
Computerparts (this nick gives me weird associations): well put; the Havana was extremely laid back; due to the d'appolito architecture of the Dyn 122s almost every thing is projected especially left-to-right but also in front; the Havana was extreme; no depth at all! I know my amp/cable/speaker system very well an d have heart it with lots of sources,  If the source has any spatial information, my system will show it.
I've confidence the REF5  will not be flat, even my Squeezebox Classic analogue outs aren't flat, and that sounds like a <€150 dis player.

I also just noticed the interconnects you're using. I have no direct experience with them. But I remember reading over and over they were generally described as lifeless. I can imagine they didn't help with the Havana at all. If the Ref5 doesn't cut it for you, I recommend you start looking at other parts of your setup rather than the dac in order to achieve the type of sound you're looking for. Another thing I forgot to mention when switching flooring. If you haven't already, you should look at re-positioning the speakers if possible.
 
I can't recommend EQ'ing in any shape or form. Whether you EQ in the analog domain or the digital domain. IMO You're always taking something away or adding something that shouldn't be there. It's bad enough that each recording is EQ'd by the mixers prior to being pressed. Don't get me wrong, EQ can be a good thing, but it's not something you can just set and forget. I'd rather just listen to the music rather than worrying about if I should raise or decrease a certain frequency from recording to recording. But that's just me. Others may actually like having the option of tweaking on the fly.

 

[dura]

Hi Peete, for the moment, room correction is not in the picture. Very expensive and I do not demand perfection from my system, just enjoyable sound. But who knows, in the far future, when my wallet has recovered...I already took some of the other measures you mentioned, and they did indeed help.
Hi Computerparts, I would'nt call the First Ultimates liveless; in fact, the sound remarkably like  the Kimber Silver Streak I used before I switched; weird, other materials, other configuration but true in my system nevertheless, and differences between interlinks are quite clear.
I took a long time positioning and decoupling my speakers, very sensitive, a few cm is sometimes clearly noticeable.

 

[dura]

Well, the REF5 is here, since Friday!
Not yet burned in, and my balanced cables (Blue Jean Belden, might upgrade later if I feel there is something to be gained) are still in the mail so I listen through the RCA's.
From the first moment on, this DAC sounded 'right' to my ears; it knows how to rock but also knows how to sound as smooth as melted chocolate, without sacrificing detail, dynamics bite or frequency extremes (like the Havana did).
Sound stage is wide but not very deep (might come later, after burn-in and going balanced); yet I kind of like it, the way some digital components suddenly reach out I always felt was artificial and probably due to high frequency phase distortions (have to admit I have no clue if that is actually the case).
Tonality is excellent; if this is neutral I love it; no accent on mid, bass or treble, everything is there. Not a trace of digital nasties, like placing percussion in front of the singer. Timbre is on par with the Havana, very good.
I'm glad people here managed to convince me Audio-GD was the way to go, and that the 'neutral'DAC's doe not sound analytical or digital-in-the-wrong-way at all, it feels like the best choice right now.
If I have more to add, like what happened when I go balanced I'll do it in the REF5 thread.
Thanks!

 

[KingFiercer]

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