[seamon]

@jeffreyw311

its ok for him to have his preferences of a 4k canyon....but as I said, its a FR that completely kills strings in any classical setting such as orchestra. Can't say his impressions about the solaris having perfect mids is going to help someone who doesn't like the 4k canyon like myself. When I read his solaris impressions, am I going to hunt for his preferences in 186 pages of this thread?

If we get to the whole pinna bypass situation, we can argue all iems regardless of the same frequency will sound different for everyone's ears....having no consensus or impressions on any iem since it should sound different for everyone. Which then means all subjective impressions can't be counted on. As for Ety's......some people really don't like the harman curve....while some people need it to sound neutral....with it sometimes....its really like knives in the ear.... Which one is correct?...I'm sure not everyone thinks ETY's sound neutral. Best thing is to know what you prefer and what works for you! But not clearly stating your preferences and throwing things like mids were good on lcd4 and abyss phi was bad doesn't really help at all with any impressions. That's why I find his whole comparison between the LCD4, Solaris, and u12t not helpful even after having heard all three of them.

TL;DR Everyone has different preferences/hearing and listen with your own ears?

What do you want me to do? Say Solaris mids are bad because I find them perfect and I am sensitive to 4kHz - 8kHz. I can only tell you what I hear not something what you would hear or someone else will hear.

Impressions and comparisons serve as a point of reference. I find them very useful for a reason : they tell us where a IEM or headphones stand with respect to all other gear. It brings the item in question out of it's bubble. If you were to listen to say IEM X and only IEM X, you would say it's the best IEM as that's the only IEM you have heard. Comparisons help to relate the SQ performance with other gear.

If you don't like any impressions/find them helpful, don't read it and go audition for yourself? :/

 

[FangJoker]

Actually...

hailed from rural North Dakota and was born into a poor farmer family. attended College but dropped out a few weeks into first semester because hated supporting self by working as a janitor.

After dropping out, went to Lake superior where met copper tycoon Dan Cody in Little Girl Bay. Cody became a mentor and invited to join his ten-year yacht trek. over the next five years, learned the ways of the wealthy.

during training for the infantry, met and fell in love with a girl, who was everything was not: rich and from a patrician Louisville family.

Later made some money, met the girl again much later but....

It did not end well.

Humble beginnings

Ok that sounds different from what is implied by your statement.

 

[Kitechaser]

So after a 130 pages of impressions. Not one mention of recessed anything...

 

[JustJoseph]

It is not just Crinacle, others here in Singapore have heard the 3 different samples and found that they sound different. They also measure differently. Crinacle has measured each of the 3 samples at least 4 times too.

I feel sorry for Crinacle. He posted his findings and now the head fi community is out with their pitchforks. Some even accuse him of being paid by Sony and trying to ruin Campfire's reputation.

The polaris samples also showed to have different frequency responses, but nobody said anything about it during then.

 

[Wooglish]

So after a 130 pages of impressions. Not one mention of recessed anything...

I, for one, did specifically mention this, and doing a quick thread search on "vocals" found 8 mentions of less than great female vocal rendering. But, of course, quantitative data does not matter, and, as I have been told before on this thread, my opinion does not matter as I do do not have many posts! This thread had veered into the bizarre! (and I actually really like my Solaris, I just wish I knew I had the best version!)

 

[ddmt]

Although they are some variation of Solaris, if you have one and if you like what you hear then good, enjoy your music. If you don't like, please return it.
Seriously we don't need to continue this argument, it will never end.

 

[ExpatinJapan]

Ok that sounds different from what is implied by your statement.

Well I initially quoted the first lines of ‘The Great Gatsby’ by F. Scott Fitzgerald.

They seemed apt. I did not name it as a quote in the hope someone who read the classic book might find some delight in spotting it.



Later a brief summary of the characters origins and the hint of the tragic end. In reply as an extra hint #2.

So it all fits...in a way...

...beats all this current back and forthing


Maybe I should have posted WB Yeats famous poem....The Second Coming...

“Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.“




“Ours is essentially a tragic age, so we refuse to take it tragically. The cataclysm has happened, we are among the ruins, we start to build up new little habitats, to have new little hopes. It is rather hard work: there is now no smooth road into the future: but we go round, or scramble over the obstacles. We've got to live, no matter how many skies have fallen.”
-
- Something else...not TGG

 

[geagle]

@davidmolliere Just a small added 0.02 on the "if they're defective, they should be returned" : at least until this whole crinacle thing exploded (=really just a few days ago), each possibly/allegedly/maybe defective unit was a demo unit in a store... how's the specific store owner to know that HIS sample is defective? It emits sound, left and right channel sound similar - why should he think his is defective? Plus, if the store owner/guy who's responsible for IEM is an enthusiast (which probably will benefit his business, but is not a requirement), he may follow head-fi, crinacle's subreddit or whatever - if he doesn't, again, he may not, even now, have any idea that his demo unit may be substantially different from other demo units across town. And who (=which shop owner) picks which one is "defective" (= unlike what it's supposed to be), and returns it? Plus, it's the holidays (though I don't know if that applies to Singapore, to be honest) - but in most places in which Xmas gifts are some sort of tradition (irrespective of the religious component), Xmas is sort of a VERY busy period for shopkeepers - and they usually have lots more things to mind, rather than sort a possible mess connected to a possibly defective unit.

All that to say that not returning them, to my mind, is not a sign of anything fishy going on.... I can see that happening very easily, in real life, for simple, ordinary reasons.

It's clear that lots of people are very satisfied with their Solaris (at least with some kind of music - I like Fleetwood Mac, reading that they may not sound good on the Solaris did not make me happy, lol). That's wonderful, and very good, most certainly, for them.

The possible problem is other people buying one expecting the same aural bliss as the people who are currently enjoying their Solaris, but getting something which will sound different from what it should - to be honest, the possibility of there being unit variations significant enough to substantially alter one's appreciation of it (which is what I took from the crinacle's thing) is disturbing, to me.

Ken said this should not/cannot happen. Crinacle's measurements (and ears) would seem to imply it did, at least with the Singapore demo units. (Unless you believe crinacle is flat out lying - personally, I have no reason to think so).

At least, KNOWING that this can happen, will help anybody who may not like what they're getting to decide to do something more about it rather than just sell them on with a possible loss (though I don't know how CA may react to people writing them about "I got a Solaris, I don't like its sound, I think I may have gotten a possibly bad one, could I get another one"?). If they will be on Amazon, the return part should be easy, at least, but then whoever gets them after is not going to be very happy, either ...

I remember the Beyer DT1350 thing quite well - I bought one, and was not happy with the specific one I got. Reading "DT1350" mentioned in this thread as a possible comparison did NOT make me happy, lol.

 

[Sound Eq]

Hi all, I'll address the measurement stuff first before I dive deeper into this.

To reiterate on what is going on, around 10th December the Singaporean distributor for Campfire received the first Solaris demo units on the island. This was the first unit I've tried and measured and named "Sample 1" for simplicity. A few days later, two other dealers that I frequent also received theirs which I have also tested. Just looking at the measured data alone, the three were very clearly different. All three were measured with small sized spiral dot tips with an external canal simulator (outlined in IEC60318-4) which puts the IEM a few mm above reference plane, but all have been targeted at a 8000Hz resonance peak (or as close as possible). Other tips were tested as well to account for that kind of variation but were not published as a standalone post so as not to confuse readers. I posted the data for the first and second samples within a few days of testing.

However due to the differences observed, I held onto the third sample data (and variance data) for weeks. In those weeks, I went back to each shop and had all 3 samples re-tested constantly, accounting for both burn-in effects as well as significant human error. It was not until yesterday (almost 20 days after the first test was performed) did I feel confident enough to post about this variation to my own personal subreddit. It wasn't even on the larger subreddits, neither did I post it to Head-Fi.

To be absolutely clear, channel matching in each individual pair of Solarises were fine.

---

Now, it would be wise to completely ignore measurements and address the real issue: I have listened to and identified differences between Solaris units. And the bigger question is, since there are a few people who are waiting for my "real" impressions on this IEM, which is the representative? Do I take the "average" or do I take the best performing unit? My personal question to Ken and the Campfire team is which unit represents the Solaris' true signature.

Campfire has semi-reached out to me and requested another re-test of all the units once again. I would happily oblige, but unfortunately I have left the country and won't be back for another half a year. However, what I can do is to have the Australian demo units tested as well. I'll update in the next week or so.

can i ask did something like this happen with other companies than campfire, as it would be good to know that

 

[fokta]

Polaris Sample 1. Polaris Sample 2. We see the exact same trend as with the Solaris:

1. Good enough channel matching (but not perfect) suggesting Campfire Audio is measuring left and right channels and pairing ones that perform similarly enough. This is a very common exercise in the audio industry, everyone does this.
2. Similar overall sound signatures but enough product variation that someone with decent enough ears would hear both units differently.

Again, Crinacle measurements are just there to support his impressions. He's spent more time listening to them than measuring them. He hears each three unit differently to the point he really likes one and doesn't like one of the others. Even if his measurements are busted, he's hearing different things. Is he actually hearing differences in the samples, actually deaf or actually insane? It has to be one of the three.

Edit: In my previous post I think I state Solaris. I mean their previous hybrid earphone Polaris.

WT.... 2 of my main IEM is having issued.... but I like the sound that I got.. so be it... Trust your ear....

 

[davidmolliere]

Hi @geagle, nice to see you here!
Lots of interesting and valid points in your post. Actually the only post I have read since I dropped off the thread yesterday (and didn’t bother to read the rest of the post that came after my last reply), this is a refreshing change

@davidmolliere Just a small added 0.02 on the "if they're defective, they should be returned" (...) All that to say that not returning them, to my mind, is not a sign of anything fishy going on....

Not saying there is anything fishy. And yes there are a lot of reasons why they weren’t returned you probably provided the explanations.

Just saying until they do return them we’ll be running in circles because Campfire won’t be able to verify anything. I mean you can’t both say Campfire has to address the issue and then deny Campfire the chance to do so, don’t you think?

At least the shop could provide the serial number for those units if they can’t return it and Campfire can check that against the QC test result if they do keep them.

I can see that happening very easily, in real life, for simple, ordinary reasons.(...) The possible problem is other people buying one expecting the same aural bliss as the people who are currently enjoying their Solaris, but getting something which will sound different from what it should - to be honest, the possibility of there being unit variations significant enough to substantially alter one's appreciation of it (which is what I took from the crinacle's thing) is disturbing, to me.

This is a valid point and concern, but again this assumes that the problem is indeed confirmed, not an isolated batch and also we have no idea what is the cause of the problem if it does exist so until Campfire can clarify that and for that they need the units... I wouldn’t loose much sleep over this.

This is seriously blown out of proportion until we have all the facts and in particular the cause of the issue if it’s confirmed that this happened without any external cause tampering those demo units.

Ken said this should not/cannot happen. Crinacle's measurements (and ears) would seem to imply it did, at least with the Singapore demo units. (Unless you believe crinacle is flat out lying - personally, I have no reason to think so).

No reason to think crincale is lying, his statement was great (I did click « like » on his post right away) among all this noise and he is clearly thoughtful and honest.

Again, until the units can be checked, I am not sure what Campfire can do about this.
Also clearly if something like this pops up several times elsewhere then it’s a real concern.

At least, KNOWING that this can happen, will help anybody who may not like what they're getting to decide to do something more about it rather than just sell them on with a possible loss (though I don't know how CA may react to people writing them about "I got a Solaris, I don't like its sound, I think I may have gotten a possibly bad one, could I get another one"?). If they will be on Amazon, the return part should be easy, at least, but then whoever gets them after is not going to be very happy, either ...

I was going to say you can return the product, I certainly would have done it had mine suffered from any issue.

Right now to me we’re in a situation where 3 units all in Singapore exhibited variance over a period of 3 weeks with multiple tests with an issue that needs to be confirmed and if confirmed, diagnosed. Then Campfire can do something about it but until then to me it’s not a concern.

People who already have doubts should wait then, if they don’t feel confident and protected enough by the fact they can return the product. If nothing else pops up in the coming weeks/months then it probably either was a defective batch for some singular reason and if the units can’t be checked then we won’t ever know.

One thing Campfire could do is provide each new owner with a QC test report in the box for their unit showing how it measures. Just thinking out loud there.

 

[seamon]

can i ask did something like this happen with other companies than campfire, as it would be good to know that

I think something like this happened to 64 Audio N8. People had a lot of expectation of the Solaris to be an Andromeda with Vega bass like a lot lot. Other IEM flagships do not have this expectation so even if some do have QC issues, they fly under the radar with just 1 unit being measured and tested.

This imo pretty much happened because Andro was so successful.
Also, I called it flawless without saying I am sensitive to 4kHz - 8kHz. It's all my fault. Please don't hurt me. Ok bye thanks.

 

[geagle]

I was going to say you can return the product, I certainly would have done it had mine suffered from any issue..

Agree with lots of stuff you said.

About returning: 1) if you're in Europe (like you and I are ) and buy directly from Campfire, you will (or, well, you SHOULD) get stiffed with custom duties, which will be relatively significant (given the relatively significant base price). Returning to CA won't be a problem (US does not have VAT as we do, nor I think duties on IEMs, so there should not be any customs problems, there), but then when CA send them back to you, either they declare it as a replacement unit or one might get additional customs issues (there are certainly ways around that - it's not a second purchase, after all, but it IS an additional hassle to cope with). 2) if one buys from Europe, from an authorized dealer, most of them have policies about not returning IEMs for hygienic reasons, I believe - which means that if it is defective, no problem at all, of course, but PROVING that it does not sound like it's supposed to (rather than just being a case of buyer's remorse, say) as a legitimate reason to return it (overruling the hygienic reasons) will be complicated, I think. 3) IF it should be available on Amazon, fantastic, ofc - but it's not, atm (unless I'm mistaken).

One very good thing is that there's overall few dissenting voices - which should prove, at least, that unit variation should not be all that common or that significant. (Then, again, if there's just one lemon, and you're the one who does get it, the thought that all those other people are enjoying their great IEMs while you got the one lemon may be sort of a cold comfort)

 

[jeffreyw311]

can i ask did something like this happen with other companies than campfire, as it would be good to know that

The two biggest examples are Beyerdynamic and Audeze. Here's an example of someone's original LCD-3 and the one they got back from warranty, both plots provided by Audeze themselves. You can also see this variance in the sheer number of LCD-2 and LCD-3 that Tyll from Inner Fidelity measured.

Which explains why Beyerdynamic's high end has historically had very polarizing opinions with some people saying the T1 is warmer than the HD800 while others saying the T1 is brighter than the HD800. Its not that both sides are wrong, its that people were likely listening to practically different headphones.

We were able to figure these things about full sized headphones sooner because people were able to create cheap robust measurement rigs capable to producing repeatable results far sooner than they were able to with IEMs. The good news is that the Solaris all follow the same rough sound signature so most people won't really notice a difference. This isn't a Beyerdynamic situation where you have no freaking idea what you're actually getting until you open the box.

One thing Campfire could do is provide each new owner with a QC test report in the box for their unit showing how it measures. Just thinking out loud there.

Dunno why more companies don't do that. Sennheiser sort of does this with the HD800 with that useless diffuse field plot that was probably done in haste by some intern but that's besides the point. No one really should have anything to hide by providing graphs of their individual units.

 

[FranTBW]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, those who like it as well as those who don’t

The Phantom comes to mind, I must be attracted and love controversial IEMs for some reason

Of course people are entitled to their opinion, and you are too, although I like to call yours "wrong", not "an opinion"