I don't think any of them are, honestly. I think there may be a problem with the measuring system. The only solution, really, are for the retailers to send the demos back to CA for retesting, it they think they are defective.
Ken makes some good points, they leave his factory optimized and sounding as they should, per his statement and his equipment. Is it possible something happened to them on the way to the retail store? Could they have become slightly unbalanced due to extreme weather or other conditions? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.
Could Crin's measuring equipment be at fault?
Something may be going on, but I don't think it's questionable QC at Campfire.
My thoughts about this is that if defective units in Singapore were found then he should have contacted Campfire Audio, ASAP.
That is what a professional reviewer would have done.
The store should also have been contacted, if that was the case.
I'm still not sure about the time line, why wait so long? Campfire Audio are a reputable company with a lot at stake with each release, just like many other earphone companies. One doesn't just trash them without first finding out what is going on. I have seen professional reviews where the reviewer states that the were sent a defective unit, and it was replaced. Never saw that written about Campfire in any of the countless reviews I have read. Either way, the reviewer reached out to the company with their concerns. That is the professional thing to do.
Ken made it perfectly clear the tools he uses for his measurements, I completely trust that they put out a quality product with top notch QC.
I personally think that Crinacle didn’t know that it would have blown up like this. Whether it was misguided or not to not contact CFA like you said, I’m not sure if I’m 100% ready to make a decision on that. I do believe that Crin isn’t acting on what he believes is the truth.
I don't think any of them are, honestly. I think there may be a problem with the measuring system. The only solution, really, are for the retailers to send the demos back to CA for retesting, it they think they are defective.
Ken makes some good points, they leave his factory optimized and sounding as they should, per his statement and his equipment. Is it possible something happened to them on the way to the retail store? Could they have become slightly unbalanced due to extreme weather or other conditions? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.
Could Crin's measuring equipment be at fault?
Something may be going on, but I don't think it's questionable QC at Campfire.
If there's a problem with the measuring system, why does Crinacle hear differences between units. Is he deaf or mental? That's why he's gone across several units in the first place, most of the time he rightfully assumes the sample unit he's listening to is the representative unit.
Again: I'm willing to bet its questionable QC if only because we've seen this exact problem with the Campfire Audio Solaris, a previous hybrid they've manufactured. A lot of these companies profess they test with their equipment yet, as we see with Beyerdynamic, they've provided people with product lines that suffer from product variation. I don't see where the blind trust in the manufacturer exists, its like blindly trusting a car company to not cheat emissions standards.
1. Those units sampled does not belong to him but store demo unit. Many failed to understand that. You can’t return or do crap about it. For potential consumer (like me) who tested it and find the tonality/SQ is slightly off, that’s bad for company IMHO. Head-fier rule-of-thumb; trust your ear and auditioned it yourself. Bad/inconsistent sample is detrimental in this case.
2. There’s no issue with channel imbalance. Some dumb arse who can’t read keep repeating it and end up KB also mentioned about channel imbalance. Channel imbalance is not the issue as all 3 samples L/R are closely matched. Issue is inconsistent curve between different samples and same result is repeatable. And it’s not about high precision or accurate probe either. Higher precision probe probably yield worst impression if indeed the curve is different between each sample.
3. His intention is clear; which one out of the three samples represent how the Solaris should sound. That I would like to know too.
If there's a problem with the measuring system, why does Crinacle hear differences between units. Is he deaf or mental? That's why he's gone across several units in the first place, most of the time he rightfully assumes the sample unit he's listening to is the representative unit.
Again: I'm willing to bet its questionable QC if only because we've seen this exact problem with the Campfire Audio Solaris, a previous hybrid they've manufactured. A lot of these companies profess they test their equipment yet, as we see with Beyerdynamic, they've provided people with product lines that suffer from product variation. I don't see where the blind trust in the manufacturer exists, its like blindly trusting a car company to not cheat emissions standards.
I'm sorry, friend, but I am completely unaware that the Campfire Audio Solaris had this problem, links please?
As for problems with Crin's equipment, it is completely possible. He is using far from professional equipment to test his earphones. As I mentioned I trust what Ken wrote as, after all, they do have their reputation on the line, especially with such a big release.
I do think that people will hear things based on what they think they are hearing, especially if they just saw graphs that have two readings.
I just have to ask. How many sony IER-Z1R demos were measured before it was rated 4 months before release?
I myself am not in the camp of blindly trusting reviewers, in any industry, and not just this particular one.
Especially when the outcome is so unprofessionally handled.
A simple call to campfire could have gotten to the bottom of this issue.
And I have to call into question the reviewer's claim that he was not trying to blow this up on head-fi, and just posted to his own subreddit, that is such a copout.
The group of people that follow him, did not take more than 2 minutes after that post to rush down here and start harassing everyone.
This was poorly handled to say the least. And calls more into question his own credibility.
The burden of proof is not on campfire, but on the person making the claims.
One of his followers told me to catch a flight to singapore and measure the 3 demo units for myself.
Maybe he should cancel his trip to Australia and do the same.
What has Z1R to do with any of this? :???
It's not crin's responsibility or place to call CA. Again, he was not sent any units.
crin has no control over other people's actions. I agree some people behaved very childishly here and hurled personal insults but again, this is not crin's fault.
I don't think any of them are, honestly. I think there may be a problem with the measuring system. The only solution, really, are for the retailers to send the demos back to CA for retesting, it they think they are defective.
Ken makes some good points, they leave his factory optimized and sounding as they should, per his statement and his equipment. Is it possible something happened to them on the way to the retail store? Could they have become slightly unbalanced due to extreme weather or other conditions? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.
Could Crin's measuring equipment be at fault?
Something may be going on, but I don't think it's questionable QC at Campfire.
I am legitimately curious, why do you think it's anything but QC at Campfire? They are not that old and established like say Sennheiser and does not have a reputation(either good or bad) for QC. To me, CA is just another company making IEMs.
I'm sorry, friend, but I am completely unaware that the Campfire Audio Solaris had this problem, links please?
As for problems with Crin's equipment, it is completely possible. He is using far from professional equipment to test his earphones. As I mentioned I trust what Ken wrote as, after all, they do have their reputation on the line, especially with such a big release.
Good enough channel matching (but not perfect) suggesting Campfire Audio is measuring left and right channels and pairing ones that perform similarly enough. This is a very common exercise in the audio industry, everyone does this.
Similar overall sound signatures but enough product variation that someone with decent enough ears would hear both units differently.
Again, Crinacle measurements are just there to support his impressions. He's spent more time listening to them than measuring them. He hears each three unit differently to the point he really likes one and doesn't like one of the others. Even if his measurements are busted, he's hearing different things. Is he actually hearing differences in the samples, actually deaf or actually insane? It has to be one of the three.
Edit: In my previous post I think I state Solaris. I mean their previous hybrid earphone Polaris.
I don't think any of them are, honestly. I think there may be a problem with the measuring system. The only solution, really, are for the retailers to send the demos back to CA for retesting, it they think they are defective.
Ken makes some good points, they leave his factory optimized and sounding as they should, per his statement and his equipment. Is it possible something happened to them on the way to the retail store? Could they have become slightly unbalanced due to extreme weather or other conditions? I'm not an engineer so I don't know.
Could Crin's measuring equipment be at fault?
Something may be going on, but I don't think it's questionable QC at Campfire.
Could you elaborate on why you think his measurement system is at fault when he has
(1) demonstrated astonishing consistency between measurement across many sittings
(2) published many measurements have widely been regarded to be accurate and have been used by the community extensively?
- all while the manufacture itself does not release the measurements they say they already have?
I just hope CA from releases their own measurements. It takes little time and effort and puts the whole debate to rest.
Either there is a consistency issue, one that the community has helped identify - or there isn't, and 2/3 of the Singaporean units were faulty. In either case, the consumer comes out with more information and everyone is happier, more informed, and better able to make purchase decisions.
Could you elaborate on why you think his measurement system is at fault when he has
(1) demonstrated astonishing consistency between measurement across the course of days
(2) published measurements of hundreds of devices which have widely been regarded to be accurate and have been used by the community extensively?
Not really sure, only testing the demo's with professional equipment can really tell. Or sending them back to Campfire. Like I said before, if there are inconsistencies there could be several reasons besides CA 's QC, which seems to be top notch from Ken's posting above.
Could be that environmental conditions, or physical mishandling has damaged the earphones... just a thought.
I hate to let you in on a secret, but many in this community don't follow Crin or his measurements. Not debating that he has taken on a huge task but I don't care for graphs, only my ears, and I disagree with many of his observations.
This same drama happened when people were arguing over the Beyer DT1350 and how it sounded. It became very heated until Innerfidelity measured a bunch of units and found they had significant variations between them.
I don't think that either Ken or Crin have been unreasonable, but this has blown up because a bunch of people who have zero idea about what is physically possible with product manufacture and thus have unrealistic expectations, made a fuss after seeing graphs that showed variations between units.
This same drama happened when people were arguing over the Beyer DT1350 and how it sounded. It became very heated until Innerfidelity measured a bunch of units and found they had significant variations between them.
I don't think that either Ken or Crin have been unreasonable, but this has blown up because a bunch of people who have zero idea about what is physically possible with product manufacture and thus have unrealistic expectations, made a fuss after seeing graphs that showed variations between units.
Exactly. The DT1350 was either a really amazing sounding portable headphone or something that sounded like hot trash. Which people, again, accused all the negative impressions to be Sennheiser shills going out to defend the honour of the HD25. As we eventually found out, there were huge sound variations with the DT1350 to the point that no two sound signatures were close to being alike. Which one was meant to be representative of the DT1350? The solution was to buy a dozen and keep the one that sounded best.
Same problem here to a lesser degree. Consistency between Solaris models are actually pretty decent all things considered and there's effort to make sure that channel matching is good, which is why it keeps its amazing sound stage. But there's definitely a question to be made about consistency between units especially when someone has audibly noticed said differences and has provided measurements showing that they do, in fact, exist.
I just have to ask. How many sony IER-Z1R demos were measured before it was rated 4 months before release?
I myself am not in the camp of blindly trusting reviewers, in any industry, and not just this particular one.
Especially when the outcome is so unprofessionally handled.
A simple call to campfire could have gotten to the bottom of this issue.
And I have to call into question the reviewer's claim that he was not trying to blow this up on head-fi, and just posted to his own subreddit, that is such a copout.
The group of people that follow him, did not take more than 2 minutes after that post to rush down here and start harassing everyone.
This was poorly handled to say the least. And calls more into question his own credibility.
The burden of proof is not on campfire, but on the person making the claims.
One of his followers told me to catch a flight to singapore and measure the 3 demo units for myself.
Maybe he should cancel his trip to Australia and do the same.
What is astonishing is you guys are more willing to accept one person's impressions, and random measurements of 3 units in Singapore, that can't be verified, over hundreds and hundreds or impressions from people who are listening to the Solaris as we speak.
It's just baffling.
He is one dude, who happens to have 1 set of ears, just like everyone else.
And the way him and his followers have handled this, calls into question more than what just transpired in the last few weeks.
Can we now go back to the Solaris please. And not the manufactured drama.
This whole thread and conversation has been going around in circles.
So that's the whole point. Some subjective opinions are extremely positive(mine included) and some are calling out recessed mids. Which is the real representation here?
Until this is resolved and know what the real representation is, I don't think we can go back to Solaris subjective impressions.
Have you heard the Solaris? What do you think about the sound?
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