[oatmeal769]

Oh yeah, the Blue Jeans cable -I can't even say it's a pricey alternative, I got a 17 foot custom length expertly made quality Belden cable with excellent terminations for less than what I could have bought an ultra cheapie 25 foot one off the rack. In can't miss it orange no less! I'll recommend them highly based on that, but it doesn't sound better than any other properly made coax cable.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why they wouldn't take a 10th of that and put it to better cables (if there was some improvement) is not something I can answer.

It's not something anyone can answer (except maybe certain folks at the manufacturers), due to the large number of possible variables and marketing parameters involved. All one can due is speculate, and make assumptions (e.g., about how cheap it would be for a manufacturer such as Sennheiser to reduce the labor costs typically associated with high-end cables) that may or may not be valid. That's why it's not a good argument, IMO.

I mean, if we're going to insist on solid, scientific data that cables make a difference, shouldn't we insist on solid, scientific data (at least of the economic type) that manufacturers could add high end cables to their phones with little added cost and without materially affecting their price points and target market?

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... cable on the HD-800 is superb. However, none of us can say why it was implemented to such high standards. Did Sennheiser truly believe that it would increase sound quality? ...

Speaker cable can be a different animal because it deals mostly with current. (headphones being speakers) Without knowing much, my uninformed guess might be that Sennheiser found that the conductor they were using was not of sufficient size to ensure desired damping performance...
That is NOT to say that a triaxial braided cryo copper silver phase aligned directional signal transmitter would be better! just that a lower gauge of copper wire (ANY copper wire) can increase damping performance in a speaker.
...Then again they might just have changed the cable to increase the perceived value.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by logwed /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're saying that they are intended to show that tonal differences occur? Like, they are built for demonstrative purposes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif please please please send those over to me! i'd love to do a spectral analysis how did you do it?

They are, specifically, the Nordost Heimdall, which, very clearly, causes the mids to come more "forward" and the Van Den Hul The Orchid which doesn't. I'd really need to both RMAA these (hard to do with XLR cables and I don't want to add a lot of crap between them and the computer that will interfere with the results) and play back a live recording which I'd been present at to determine what is going on. However, with the Buena Vista Social Club, the piano seems to more overwhelm the music with the Heimdalls plugged in. When I had about $5k of DACs and amps here to test, I found with the Heimdalls it was impossible to evaluate them as they were causing tonal changes in the sound, whereas with the Orchids no tonal changes were apparent.

What I've come to realise about all these arguments about whether gear, such as DACs, amps and cables sound different or not is, that there are, essentially two types of "different": There is tonally different, and there is more or less detail different. It's easy to impress people with tonal differences, such as the usual "mid-bass hump" or "more treble". It's much harder to impress people who are already into hi-fi in some way with detail differences. So if someone feels that a bunch of DACs sound the same, then they probably do, if they all RMAA flat exactly the same way. Getting out a high-end electrostat rig, one then might be able to determine what is more detailed than what. However, it is a quagmire, as, say, if one component in the chain is killing detail (and we're probably talking tiny, supposedly inaudible differences in the signal) then no differences will be heard. If anything, this shows what a crazy quest getting the most detail from music is -- you end up spending a lot of money on the tiniest of differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sure anyone who listens can hear what they like and may agree with you. You cannot prove that you can tell a difference by listening alone though.

You can't prove their is not a difference by reading stuff off the web either. If people can't be trusted to evaluate sound on their own, then they can be no more trusted to evaluate the writings of others on their own either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't understand why anyone has to "prove" that certain cables sound better to them in their system. I also don't understand the OP's point about waste. If I buy an interconnect, and try it out in my system, and I think it sounds better, and it is worth the money to me to obtain the improvement that I perceive, how is that a "waste" of money.

Some people don't like people having personal opinion, but believe that everyone should follow their beliefs or religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Of course there is. Scientific MethodI suppose as many times as other folks need to claim they're not.I have no doubt that it sounds better in your mind. That you can demonstrate an actual audible difference exists by listening alone though, is easily provable as false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Who claims science is the monolith of truth? How many times have "facts" changed what "science" claimed as fact over history?

I find the religious nature of people quoting science no different to religious people quoting scripture. It's more about human nature than it is about what is true or not.

The ultimate cable truth is: It's a waste of time arguing over them.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't prove their is not a difference by reading stuff off the web either.

Nor would I attempt to do so. I can not prove that your cables do not sound better to you. What I can prove is that you - on your own equipment, taking as long as you like, cannot show beyond random chance that you can tell a difference between your cables and a set from Fry's by listening alone. Before you suggest I fly over and do so, I'd be happy to show how you can prove it to yourself. But we will need to switch forums for that. < Edit: > If indeed you are able to do so, please post your methods so that anyone can replicate the conditions and make their own observations. < / edit > If you will ignore scientific method however, and trust only your own senses instead, I really can't even prove to you that the world is not flat. Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ultimate cable truth is: It's a waste of time arguing over them.

But it is NOT a waste of time to represent both sides for someone new to the hobby with questions. - Before they go out and drop $400 (or much more) on snake oil based on a recommendation made here.

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What I can prove is that you - on your own equipment, taking as long as you like, cannot show beyond random chance that you can tell a difference between your cables and a set from Fry's by listening alone. Before you suggest I fly over and do so, I'd be happy to show how you can prove it to yourself. But we will need to switch forums for that.

PM me the method. I can guess what it would involve.

I will see, sometime when I can be bothered, if I can measure the differences between the two cables with which I can hear a clear tonal difference.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will see, sometime when I can be bothered, if I can measure the differences between the two cables with which I can hear a clear tonal difference.

I'd like to think one could measure differences between most any two cables, regardless of whether or not one can hear any differences. Or has someone claimed that all cables measure the same?

se

 

[SethSil]

 

[Sherwood]

Aw heck no. This thread demands courage wolf.

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I notice you own a PS Audio DL-III DAC with Cullen stage 3 mod. Is it a "scientific fact" that this DAC, as modded, sounds better than a cheapo CD player?

that's an unfair question - "better" is highly subjective! but yes, those mods do affect the output in a way that can be measured on something as simple as a frequency response

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Or stated more generally, is there scientific proof that DAC's or CD players over a certain price point (let's say, $200) sound different?

gallons of proof! beyond graphs, many people are successful at distinguishing gear in DBT's. it's really not that hard, either

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd like to think one could measure differences between most any two cables, regardless of whether or not one can hear any differences. Or has someone claimed that all cables measure the same?

Sure, anyone can measure a difference. Probably even by using a simple multimeter, and almost certainly by using software like RMAA. That doesn't mean anyone can demonstrate that they hear a difference however.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif gallons of proof! beyond graphs, many people are successful at distinguishing gear in DBT's. it's really not that hard, either

Well, there are a quite a few folks on this forum who insist that (1) all CDP's or DAC's above a certain threshold all sound the same, and (2) there are no reliable DBT's establishing differences. So my question was more or less based on what others have said in the past, but maybe sometimes when people report on what's been validated or not in scientific tests, they are not reporting accurately.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I notice you own a PS Audio DL-III DAC with Cullen stage 3 mod. Is it a "scientific fact" that this DAC, as modded, sounds better than a cheapo CD player? Or stated more generally, is there scientific proof that DAC's or CD players over a certain price point (let's say, $200) sound different?

Phil - Sorry, Apparently I missed this post earlier...

Specifically, I have addressed this very question over the past 2 weeks (I have a lot of free time at the moment...) Please check out my review / shootout. In a way, it directly pertains to what we are speaking of here. I'd be pleased to have any and all input / feedback. There is no 'agenda' (aside from learning more about this silly hobby we all have) with it, I tried to make it as transparent and unbiased as I could.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Specifically, I have addressed this very question over the past 2 weeks (I have a lot of free time at the moment...) Please check out my review / shootout. In a way, it directly pertains to what we are speaking of here. I'd be pleased to have any and all input / feedback.

Is it possible you could give us the Reader's Digest version, so people don't have to go to the other post (which is somewhat lengthy) and so that the discussion that is relevant to the present topic can be found on this thread? That way, it will make it easier for everyone to understand what we're talking about.

 

[HotHead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry. Quality matters. I do love my 13.00 Belkin RCA though.. But might get the OXY fuel or side winders for 60% off. I enjoy my BOK/Mother MK PC. Would never pay retail for them, but feel they improve my system.

Would like to try these but where can I obtain the discounts he speaks of? OXY fuel or side winders for 60% off? BOK/Mother MK PC less than retail, where?