[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif If I make note of an "audible difference" between two different scenarios, it is one based on my perceptions, not fact. However, the vast majority of the discussions in this thread are not purely formed by such means.

Agreed. And as long as those opinions are clearly noted as such, no one ought to bother you. Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif " ... enjoyment is the most important piece of this hobby, in my opinion. If higher quality cables enhance my listening experience (be it even through atheistic or placebo effect) it could still well be worth the purchase.

I completely agree again. It's likely true that those cables enhanced your listening experience. Stating as fact that they make an audible difference as an absolute is what I have a problem with. Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Making choices based entirely on factual evidence would create for a cold listening experience.

perhaps emotionally to the listener, but not as far as equipment performance. Gear doesn't care whether you think it's good or not. Imparting emotional characteristics on inanimate objects won't change reality. It might make someone feel better though.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stating as fact that they make an audible difference as an absolute is what I have a problem with.

And the problem I have is that you seem to think that you are the arbiter of what can be pronounced as "fact."

 

[El_Doug]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is not correct. If you do a search on these forums and others, you will find data supporting audible differences between cables. You might not find the data persuasive, or you might have concerns about the methodologies, or you might believe the data is overwhelmed by contrary data, but it is not correct to say there is "zero data."

it is quite correct to say there is zero data, afaik. those most recent "scientific discoveries" about cables offer imprecise and inappropriate graphs, but the raw data from which they were derived has never been released.

if there is data, i'd love to see it! why not provide us all with a link?

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is not correct. ... it is not correct to say there is "zero data."

I should have said zero factual data. Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... you are misleading people to the same extent as you say people mislead by stating "as a fact" that they heard a difference with their cables.

I'm not refuting that you heard it, I'm refuting that it factually exists. Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're perfectly entitled to come to that opinion in making your decisions. But you really don't have any basis to opine what others should do (especially others you know nothing about), unless they ask you.

I think that by coming into a public Hi-Fi forum and showing a link to an article that refutes opinions that cables make a difference, and then stating that boutique level cables are a waste of money, is generally understood to be an invitation for discussion and debate. I'm merely taking the side of agreement.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif And the problem I have is that you seem to think that you are the arbiter of what can be pronounced as "fact."

No more so than someone who seems to think they should have their statement of opinion arbitrarily regarded as fact. Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Doug /img/forum/go_quote.gif if there is data, i'd love to see it! why not provide us all with a link?

Those conversations and links are not permitted here I don't think. A quick Google will find reams of work on the subject however - even within Head-Fi on another forum.

 

[oatmeal769]

Guys, I think we're starting in circles, let's agree to disagree, and not clutter the forum with essentially the same points over and over.
As a novelty, if we do so, it might go down in history as the first cable debate to ever end without a flame war, and mods banning and closing, etc!

 

[ParadigmPenguin]

Here's a question. The vast majority of the cost of cables stems from it's being labor intensive, yes? Surely, headphone companies such as AKG, Sennheiser, and Sony have the capital to create cables quickly and cost effectively. Therefore, the cost to these companies of "upgrading" their cables to what "high-end" aftermarket manufacturers use would be negligible. If that's the case, why haven't they done so?

If better cables could provide even a 10% improvement to sound quality, I'm sure most manufacturers would implement them OEM.

I still admire aftermarket cables for their quality and aesthetic. Whether or not this lends or detracts from one's listening experience is subjective.

Good input, all.

 

[ford2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's a question. The vast majority of the cost of cables stems from it's being labor intensive, yes? Surely, headphone companies such as AKG, Sennheiser, and Sony have the capital to create cables quickly and cost effectively. Therefore, the cost to these companies of "upgrading" their cables to what "high-end" aftermarket manufacturers use would be negligible. If that's the case, why haven't they done so? If better cables could provide even a 10% improvement to sound quality, I'm sure most manufacturers would implement them OEM. I still admire aftermarket cables for their quality and aesthetic. Whether or not this lends or detracts from one's listening experience is subjective. Good input, all.

Well said,I am sure Senn with the HD800 would not have released it without testing cables for it.
What material do Senn use on there cables and plugs,is it exotic,I doubt it.
Its a wonder that cables with refrigeration jackets have not come into vogue.
I will give after market cables one thing some of them are visually stunning,so I guess a couple hundred for eye candy is fine,if you work out how long you will have them and look at them for the enjoyment it gives then the cost is negligible.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Guys, I think we're starting in circles, let's agree to disagree . . . .

I think we found something we agree on.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadigmPenguin /img/forum/go_quote.gif If better cables could provide even a 10% improvement to sound quality, I'm sure most manufacturers would implement them OEM.

I don't think that necessarily follows. Manufacturers consider lots of factors when deciding how to construct their products and what price point they want to achieve, etc. Furthermore, achieving a 10% improvement (whatever that means

) might add more than 10% to the cost of the product, or a lot more, and that may have a substantial impact on the target market for a product.

Furthermore, it is well-established that Sennheiser improved the cable on their HD-800 as compared to the HD-600 or HD-650. Is this proof that Sennheiser determined that better quality cables sound better?

There are some good arguments on why cables might not make a difference, but suggesting that Sennheiser, et al. would make their phones with high-end cables if they made an audible difference is not one of them, IMHO.

 

[oatmeal769]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 883dave /img/forum/go_quote.gif I followed three links in your signature...the first was to Blue Jean cable, the second to Zu which proclaimed the Gede cable is $229.00, the third to Cardas for a V2 Headphone Cable, which I assume is for the HD600. You seem to be sending conflicting signals. After what you have written why would you spend excessive money on at least two cables when you know it to be a fact that they can't make a difference?

Hey, now wait a minute. The fact that I wrote in this thread long after I obtained them is irrelevant. These cables are completely different. They are MAGIC cables with which I can in pure fact hear an improvement in my recorded music vs the cables I had prior. There's a difference, you should buy some. Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Camper /img/forum/go_quote.gif Who claims science is the monolith of truth? How many times have "facts" changed what "science" claimed as fact over history?

If you query the definition of 'scientific fact' you will find it says exactly what you have just said. As soon as it is a scientific fact that really expensive interconnects sound better than the generic ones found at Best Buy, I'll be the first to buy a set. Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG POPPA /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thread Ninja's just make me giggle.

Flat Earth-ers make me giggle too.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif As soon as it is a scientific fact that really expensive interconnects sound better than the generic ones found at Best Buy, I'll be the first to buy a set.

I notice you own a PS Audio DL-III DAC with Cullen stage 3 mod. Is it a "scientific fact" that this DAC, as modded, sounds better than a cheapo CD player? Or stated more generally, is there scientific proof that DAC's or CD players over a certain price point (let's say, $200) sound different?

 

[ParadigmPenguin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think that necessarily follows. Manufacturers consider lots of factors when deciding how to construct their products and what price point they want to achieve, etc. Furthermore, achieving a 10% improvement (whatever that means ) might add more than 10% to the cost of the product, or a lot more, and that may have a substantial impact on the target market for a product.

As said above, the construction of cables is very expensive, due mostly to time consuming labor. Major companies would not have this problem, thanks to heavy machinery and established factories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Furthermore, it is well-established that Sennheiser improved the cable on their HD-800 as compared to the HD-600 or HD-650. Is this proof that Sennheiser determined that better quality cables sound better?

That's a fair point, the cable on the HD-800 is superb. However, none of us can say why it was implemented to such high standards. Did Sennheiser truly believe that it would increase sound quality? Or, could it be that at that price point ($1400) it would be foolish not to upgrade the cable to something of a higher quality? Obviously, the HD-800s are the best of the best, and cost cutting would be frowned upon, regardless of whether or not it made an audible difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are some good arguments on why cables might not make a difference, but suggesting that Sennheiser, et al. would make their phones with high-end cables if they made an audible difference is not one of them, IMHO.

I can't see why not. Cables would be extremely cheap to manufacture, especially with major companies' infrastructures and capital. Headphone companies spend large amounts of money on R&D trying to improve their equipment. Why they wouldn't take a 10th of that and put it to better cables (if there was some improvement) is not something I can answer.

That 10% was just an arbitrary figure, by the way.

 

[883dave]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oatmeal769 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hey, now wait a minute. The fact that I wrote in this thread long after I obtained them is irrelevant. These cables are completely different. They are MAGIC cables with which I can in pure fact hear an improvement in my recorded music vs the cables I had prior. There's a difference, you should buy some.

So this exercise has been a platform for you to extrol the value of the cables in your signature?

 

[oatmeal769]

But seriously, I bought those before I knew better, based on recommendations here on the forum. I wish I'd seen a few more differing viewpoints before I bought them, or at least been shown that there is no scientific / mathematical proof.
I LOVE the fit and finish of the Zu's, and I LOVE the way the Cardas lays, and doesn't get tangled. It also is not very micro-phonic. I even KNEW that I could hear that they sounded better. Until I educated myself and became aware of how persuasive placebo can be. I've done that of which we shall not speak many times and know that I cannot perceive a difference.
Do they in fact SOUND better? No. Do I LIKE them better than stock, and does it enrich my experience? Of course.