[tfarney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool bubba ice /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bada had better timbre, bass & imaging.. Was warm, lush & sweet. The GS1 was more neutral With better detail, seperation & air around the instruments.. The VHP 1 with PS.. Better Dynamics, bass was full & well defined..Butter smooth, with a hint of vinyl sweetness.. No digital grunge at all.. The V1800 is a bit harsh & fatiging IMO, with a hint of grain.. & too much smearing, & the air around the instruments sound deflated.. But Pur digital fixes the harshness & fatigue factor. With digital music I'd give it a 7..Movies.6-9. Gaming 6-9.

Was that supposed to say "But Pure Direct" fixes the harshness & fatigue factor"...? I find the high-end Yamahas to be really wonderful headphone amps (speakers too...) in pure direct mode. They are not what I'd call "warm," but they are not at all fatiguing. Great bass control. Great detail. Great extension. And Silent Cinema puts 5.1 surround inside your head about as well as that's ever likely to happen.

Tim

 

[sunseeker888]

Both my 500-c Fishers had the reversed jack. And i started a thread on it at Audiokarma and they thought I was crazy; theirs didn't have the issue.

+1 on the Cambridge 640A V2....killer class-a phones circuit with my 32 0hm Grados

 

[Bostonears]

Since lots of people are mentioning 1970s vintage gear in this thread, I'll throw in a nod to my Marantz 2225 receiver. It's headphone jack output is remarkably good, and it even handles low impedance Grado and Denon cans without a problem. If the 2225 weren't so big and clunky, I might be using it as the amp in my main headphone rig. (The 2225 is currently relegated to speaker duty in a bedroom system, where it sounds very nice.)

 

[dlaloum]

Hi Folks
 
this thread seems to need ongoing re-awakening...
 
I am just getting back into HP's after a lengthy absence...
 
Past History:
Used to Listen to (and sell) Revox 3100/OEM Beyer DT880 600Ohm, Koss Pro4x, AKG K140 (OEM Radio Shack version)
Amps used : Revox A750, B251, Various mid 80's Marantz & Pioneer integrateds and Marantz Pre
 
Coming back to phones after 20 years absence.... I initially got back into it after getting some Noise Cancelling Senn PXC250's, followed by the much better PXC450's - now waiting for a set of Revox 3100's to rock up from flee-bay (and I've ordered a set of German Maestro pads for them)
 
Current listening is primarily from my Onkyo TX-SR876 AVR.... I have also used my PC on board sound card (nothing to write home about on that one!)
My primary source is a Media PC set up with both HDMI digital output, as well as SPDIF from my M-Audio 2496 card.
 
I have asked Onkyo about the Headphone setup on the AVR - they have told me that it is driven by an Opamp - specifically NE5532AP
 
I would love to get some details as to the Headphone amp topology / circuit diagrams.... there are plenty of reputable Headamps that use this opamp.
In terms of PSU the AVR would be hard to beat (regardless which of the internal PSU's it is connected to, both voltage and current are huge in this beast) - and given that a good PSU is a big part of a good amps sound - it has the potential for good results.
 
Of course listening is a relative affair - and I need to make more comparisons before I know how good or bad the AVR is compared to other head amps.
 
Bye for now
 
David

 

[pp312]

Thanks for reviving this thread, dialoum; I'd forgotten about it. I wanted it to be a sticky at the time I started it because it's something people might want to contribute to regularly, but it wasn't to be.
 
It's unusual that your Onkyo uses an IC for the HP circuit; most amps are powered from the speaker outlets through resistors. As to the 5532, it's fashionable to bag that chip, partly because it's cheap, but in fact it's very decent and I once had an electronics magazine HP amp design that used it with excellent results. In any case if it sounds good to you it is good.  

 

[dlaloum]

Hi PP312
 
I have been searching round the web for other information on the Onkyo AVR's
 
The Onkyo TX-NRx007/x008 and the earlier TX-NR906/905 & TX-SR876/875 as well as the related pre's are internally very very similar, and it seems extremely likely that all of these use the same Headphone amplification method.
 
If I was Onkyo, and had done the work required to design an appropriate Headamp for my AVR's - I would certainly fit it to all the systems where the margins justified the expense - so it may well be in the 80x/70x/60x AVR's as well. 
I am only guessing of course, but at some point at the lower end of the range it might be more economical to use resistors.... on the other hand the difference in cost would be measured in cents and the same design might be ubiquitous in all Onkyo devices.... no way of knowing without access to circuit diagrams!
 
Once my "new" headphones arrive, I will give things a try - I will also be purchasing a resistor network box, to attach externally to the Onkyo AVR as well as some of my standalone power amps.... and will compare these to each other.
 
In the house we will have the following headphones to test with:
Revox 3100 / Beyer DT880pro 600ohm
ATH-AD700
AKG K140 (Its in storage and I still need to find this one)
PXC450
PXC250
 
Would be nice if I had access to a top notch headamp as a reference point.... (Would be nice to have a lot of things!

 )

 

[snip]

+1 for NAD, 304 here, loving it for headphones, not bad at all for speakers either.
 
I have the following headphones and amplifiers;
 
Senn HD590
Senn HD600
Fostex T50RP
Beyer DT770 pro 80 ohm
Starving student hybrid
Audiotailor Jade - Waiting for balanced cable for the HD600
Headphone out on "skyline" modified Maverick D1 - Very good by the way
Headphone out on USB X-fi - not really as bad as you would think.
8-Audio hybrid - Not dissimilar to Bravo audio design, but a lot better, not really impressive either.
 
Amps I have tried
CKIII
 
Amps I am getting soon;
M3
 
DAC's;
Beresford 7510 - heavily modified
Maverick D1 - "Skyline" modification
 
How the 304 stacks up;
 
The only amplifier I own which has enough current for the Fostex
 
On the HD600 - The Jade is better, expect it will be better with the balanced cable.
DT770 v- The student really loves this one, not at all bad on the X-fi
 
Any questions feel free to ask.
 
//Jan 

 

[dlaloum]

Hi Folks
 
I have just received partial circuit diagrams for my receiver (Onkyo TX-SR876) - which includes the Headphone amp diagrams
 

I am hoping for comments from those who are electronically gifted......
 
Based on this diagram what should I expect?
Best with low/med/high imp HP's?
How much "grunt" should it have?
comments?
 
thanks
 
David
 

 

[pp312]

dialoum, we can't see the circuit. Even on the other thread where the circuit expands, it doesn't expand enough to see anything. Even an expert would need a microscope to make anything of that.  

 

[dlaloum]

hmm - let me try to cut the Headphone amp out of that page and paste that alone.....

 
 
I also did some more research... (the rest is a double up from my other posting...)

 

the circuit has close family resemblance to:

 

Rod Elliott ESP amp :

http://sound.westhost.com/project113.htm

 

Unknown Author design - with opamp rolling info:

http://www.iroel.org/2010/03/16/headphone-amplifier-circuit-using-op-amp/

 

Earle Eaton Headphone amp:

http://www.audioattic.de/projects/eaton.html

http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/projects/showfile.php?file=eaton_prj.htm

 

Based on the comments attached to these designs it should be a good all round design, very quiet, not great with low imp phones, best with 120ohm+, may have trouble driving 600ohm to decent volume.

 

I am now trying to find out what basic commercial amps use a similar design.... 

 

 

 

[dlaloum]

Check out http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/projects/opamp_prj.htm - class B and AB symmetric followers - especially fig 11c
 
this also makes reference to Earl Eaton and Sheldon Stokes designs which are from the same family
 
Apparently the NE5532 is followed by a circuit which is very similar to figure 11c - a class AB symmetric follower
 
The more power is available to this design the more it can be biased into class A - with resulting improvement in sound - however as it is driven higher it will revert to class B with attendant cross over distortion.... so it should be able to drive high impedance phones requiring high voltage - but will do best with impedances high enough to avoid potential noise, and low enough to allow it to drive primarily in class A.
 
So that would be consistent with the observations relating to Earl Eaton's design that mid impedance phones work best (100 - 300 ohm).
 
This would make it a similar circuit to Headamps such as Firestone Audio's Cute Encore which I believe was a US$200 Headamp (recently discontinued) - and to match the type of power supply available in a high end receiver you would need to add the Supplier optional PSU - for another $100. (which is a pretty close match - 24V for firestone psu's, 28.8V for the Onkyo)
 
Which would make circa $300 for a well regarded commercial equivalent to the built in opamp setup in this receiver.
 
Of course there are other factors:
1) Quality of implementation (including component quality as well as design)
2) Noise within the receiver caused by other circuits etc.... (can be minimised in pure audio mode which shuts non-required circuits down, but seperates are the purist approach)
 
Within the next 2 weeks I should have a few toys with which to run some interesting comparisons....
 
HP's:
Vintage Revox 3100 (600 ohm) (oem DT880)
AT ATH-AD700
Sen PXC450 & PXC250
 
Amps:
Onkyo TX-SR876 Receiver
Dedicated Head Amp (TBA) - unit retailing for around $200 - $350
Art Headtap resistor network for connection to power amps with Quad 606 & Quad 405 (class A with current dumping), Quad 303 (class B), Onkyo receiver (Class AB)
 
I'm looking forward to that... finding out what is really better a basic resistor network connected to the amp, or a dedicated opamp circuit - and how either of those compares to a good entry level Headamp
 
David

 

[ProtegeManiac]

NAD and Marantz generally have nice headphone outputs; I still use my Marantz CD60 via the headphone out with SR225s listening to vocals. Anything too complex, like symphonic metal and Mahler, Wagner, etc, and they're all over the place, especially with HD600s, although it still gets loud. The PM80 is a lot better, great thing about it is even the poweramp section can be run on Class A-mode, so even the headphone out is getting that signal. My NAD304 is good too. Sucks with inefficient headphones (but what doesn't?) works great with my SR225. Used to be my main amp and system with the SR225's for night listening. Sold the speakers though and I've stuck with headphones - to heck with the smaller stage so long as I don't have to deal with room modes. Kept the amp though, for now.

 

[lyramax]

Quote:

...
Based on the comments attached to these designs it should be a good all round design, very quiet, not great with low imp phones, best with 120ohm+, may have trouble driving 600ohm to decent volume.
...

I've been using two headphones with my Onkyo TX-NR906 which (except for its "network-ready" feature) is essentially the same as the 876: the Sennheiser HD-580 (which I think has a 300 ohm impedance) and the Beyerdynamic DT-880 600-ohm. The Senn sounds very full but a bit "muddy", the Beyerdynamic highly resolved but "thin". Sound volume wise the Beyerdynamic requires around -6dB boost to yield the same loudness level as the Senn.
 

 

[kboe]

My cousin had a Denon receiver that did wonders for my SE530s.  Listening to soundtracks over that system was some of the most amazing music I have ever heard.  The sound was simply so DENSE.

 

[pp312]

Quote:

NAD and Marantz generally have nice headphone outputs; I still use my Marantz CD60 via the headphone out with SR225s listening to vocals. Anything too complex, like symphonic metal and Mahler, Wagner, etc, and they're all over the place, especially with HD600s, although it still gets loud. The PM80 is a lot better, great thing about it is even the poweramp section can be run on Class A-mode, so even the headphone out is getting that signal. My NAD304 is good too. Sucks with inefficient headphones (but what doesn't?) works great with my SR225. Used to be my main amp and system with the SR225's for night listening. Sold the speakers though and I've stuck with headphones - to heck with the smaller stage so long as I don't have to deal with room modes. Kept the amp though, for now.

The Marantz CD60, a very nice sounding player, was a higher model in its time so probably had a good quality headphone output (though of course based on ICs). The PM80 is a great brute of an amp putting out around 25 watts PC in Class A mode. Sounds great with phones but is total overkill; I always had a guilty conscience whenever I switched mine on just to listen to phones (and incidentally, I never could pick a difference between Class A and AB). Not sure what you mean about the the Nad 304 sucking with inefficient phones. There shouldn't be a power issue. If it doesn't sound any good with certain phones it's more likely to be a synergy thing. It would certainly suit the Grado.