[Adelfaidah]

Hello, first off i just want to say that this is a pretty long post so i apologize in advance i can only post here at the moment as I am new here. don't get me wrong, i am not at the slightest an audiophile but I've done some reading and i am planning to order the Sennheiser HD650 found it for around 500$ AUD (granted it could be much cheaper but cant find any in Australia ATM) also I'm getting a JSD lab the element AMP/DAC with it. However, i don't really understand the "high gain, low gain" concept, so...

1- I'm not sure when should i switch between the two and what are the differences if someone could explain it to me I'll be really thankful.

2- is it possible that if i turn the volume on the JSD lab the element to the max it could damage my HD650 drivers?

3- i have been reading about impedance and current and i believe the HD650 are around 300 OHMs if I'm not mistaken so i checked the JSD lab the element and found the following:

• Output Impedance 0.1 Ω
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 600Ω140 mW (9.4VRMS)
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 150Ω505 mW
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 32Ω1.1 W
  
  
• Peak Output Power, 32Ω1.5W
  
  
• Dual Gain1.0x and 4.7x
  

I'm not sure how to interpret this data could someone help me understand ?

if you have other suggestions for different headphones or AMP/DAC i would love to hear it (i have looked into many amps including O2+ODAC , MAGNI 2/MODI 2 ,Fiio , Asgard and Valhalla which i believe is a hybrid between tube and solid state). Initially I was going to purchase the O2+ODAC AMP/DAC combo but read that the element is similar but personally i find it aesthetically stunning and some say its even slightly better performance-wise so i chose to pay an extra 30 bucks for the latter.

 

[Rhamnetin]

All you would do is see how the HD 650 sounds with each gain setting. Chances are, high gain will sound best. Then you just set it to that and leave it.

Cranking the volume up all the way should be unnecessary, but shouldn't damage the HD 650 based on those power specs (e.g., not a ton of power is pumped into a 300 ohms headphone like the HD 650).

 

[Adelfaidah]

All you would do is see how the HD 650 sounds with each gain setting. Chances are, high gain will sound best. Then you just set it to that and leave it.

Cranking the volume up all the way should be unnecessary, but shouldn't damage the HD 650 based on those power specs (e.g., not a ton of power is pumped into a 300 ohms headphone like the HD 650).

Thank you for the reply. regarding the headphone and amp/dac do you have any clue if those two should pair well and do you suggest i look into something else in similar price range? (Ive heard good things about the dt880 but im not sure)

 

[Rhamnetin]

Thank you for the reply. regarding the headphone and amp/dac do you have any clue if those two should pair well and do you suggest i look into something else in similar price range? (Ive heard good things about the dt880 but im not sure)

The Element is a very respectable choice, and I think it should pair well. The DT 880 and HD 650 excel in different areas; the DT 880 is one of the most well rounded headphones for the price, it has a more distant and neutral sound presentation than the HD 650, and more lively treble in comparison.

The HD 650 is truly excellent for chamber music, it makes string instruments and piano sound incredibly real particularly in small ensembles (whereas you need something like the HD 800 / HD 800 S to get that kind of realism for large ensembles). It's respectable for every other genre, as is the DT 880 but which doesn't outright excel with any genre to my ears (jack of all trades and master of none applies to the DT 880).

 

[Adelfaidah]

The Element is a very respectable choice, and I think it should pair well. The DT 880 and HD 650 excel in different areas; the DT 880 is one of the most well rounded headphones for the price, it has a more distant and neutral sound presentation than the HD 650, and more lively treble in comparison.

The HD 650 is truly excellent for chamber music, it makes string instruments and piano sound incredibly real particularly in small ensembles (whereas you need something like the HD 800 / HD 800 S to get that kind of realism for large ensembles). It's respectable for every other genre, as is the DT 880 but which doesn't outright excel with any genre to my ears (jack of all trades and master of none applies to the DT 880).

Wow you expained the differences very neatly this really helps. One more thing though when it comes to bass and specifically feeling a thump in the lower range frequencies which of the two headphones would you say perform better? But not to the point where it feels artificial...

Edit: ive been reading alot about the veil effect of the 650s or the fact that it sounds dark are those claims exagerated and more imporantly is it necessarily a bad thing?

 

[Rhamnetin]

HD 650 has more bass presence, making the sound a bit thicker and weightier in comparison.

I think the "veiling" of the HD 650 is exaggerated, since veil to me suggests obscured details, which the HD 650 doesn't suffer from compared to most other headphones in its price range. But it does have a thicker sound with less treble forwardness, and sounds a bit "slower" than others due to its laid back treble presentation. What kind of music do you listen to?

 

[buke9]

Agree the 650’s lend themselves to just about any genre of music . The veil is just over used it is a bit rolled off on the highs but not like the Audioquest Nighthawks or Fostex TX0’s . I do like them from a bit brighter source though hate them from the Mojo but from a Bottlehead Crack they just sing. Actually listening to them now from a Brookstone Big Blue $9.99 amp and it does a pretty good job if you don’t listen real loud newer music is loud but older stuff before the loudness war needs some help but still listenable.

 

[Adelfaidah]

HD 650 has more bass presence, making the sound a bit thicker and weightier in comparison.

I think the "veiling" of the HD 650 is exaggerated, since veil to me suggests obscured details, which the HD 650 doesn't suffer from compared to most other headphones in its price range. But it does have a thicker sound with less treble forwardness, and sounds a bit "slower" than others due to its laid back treble presentation. What kind of music do you listen to?

If im being honest i listen to basically all genres classical, blues, jazz, 90s hiphop, EDM, rock, and ofcourse modern day pop songs. However, if i really had to pick one i would go for hip hop rap in particular

 

[Adelfaidah]

Agree the 650’s lend themselves to just about any genre of music . The veil is just over used it is a bit rolled off on the highs but not like the Audioquest Nighthawks or Fostex TX0’s . I do like them from a bit brighter source though hate them from the Mojo but from a Bottlehead Crack they just sing. Actually listening to them now from a Brookstone Big Blue $9.99 amp and it does a pretty good job if you don’t listen real loud newer music is loud but older stuff before the loudness war needs some help but still listenable.

Thats good to know that its not as "veiling" as people tend to say it is. Also, although now id rather stick to solid state amps espeacially due to price. Would you say investing in a tube amp in the future is worth it? that is, compared to amps like o2+odac or the element.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Personally I prioritize amps that are built and designed well and meet my functionality requirements, whether it uses tubes or not. That's a good place to start I think. Seeing as how The Element can be used as a standalone DAC to power another amp, you can always get another amp in the future if you so desire.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

However, i don't really understand the "high gain, low gain" concept, so...

1- I'm not sure when should i switch between the two and what are the differences if someone could explain it to me I'll be really thankful.

Gain just affects how much louder the signal gets. Gain alone can't substitute for power, since very high gain will get loud but if power delivery is lacking it will clip or the lack of clean power will lead to distortion and noise, but if you have a powerful amp with a very low low gain setting - like older Meier amps - all the 13volts it'll put into the headphones will not get to a point that it's very loud depending on the headphones. That gain setting is more for low impedance, very high impedance drivers, like IEMs or even Grados (although even at high gain it can get to about 8:00, and the good quality potentiometer doesn't have any imbalance).

if you're into cars or at least video game cars (or bikes), it's like gear ratios. You can get a good quarter mile time or top speed, but ultimately you can't improve on both if you're not increasing engine power (or torque curve).

2- is it possible that if i turn the volume on the JSD lab the element to the max it could damage my HD650 drivers?

Not necessarily. If it's not clipping nor distorting then no problem. Easiest way to tell: if the sound sucks or bass beats come with a "thwack! thwack! thwack!" sounds that indicates the drivers are hitting X-Max.

If anything high gain can make the amp more susceptible to noise, but even if you

3- i have been reading about impedance and current and i believe the HD650 are around 300 OHMs if I'm not mistaken so i checked the JSD lab the element and found the following:

• Output Impedance 0.1 Ω
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 600Ω140 mW (9.4VRMS)
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 150Ω505 mW
  
  
• Max Continuous Output, 32Ω1.1 W
  
  
• Peak Output Power, 32Ω1.5W
  
  
• Dual Gain1.0x and 4.7x

I'm not sure how to interpret this data could someone help me understand ?

It means you're getting continuous power - ie you can assume that even if you're using all of it, you have at least maybe 25% more for dynamic peaks in the music - at the given impedance load. Power delivery changes depending on impedance, typically when it goes higher but can also be when it's lower (and probably makes the amp unstable if the load is too low).

At the 300ohm impedance of the HD650 you're getting somewhere between the 150ohm and 600ohm ratings. Safe to assume you're getting a little over 250ohms - that's enough power to hit 120dB, theoretically (since gain can affect that but AFAIK at 4.7ohms that's no problem).

if you have other suggestions for different headphones or AMP/DAC i would love to hear it (i have looked into many amps including O2+ODAC , MAGNI 2/MODI 2 ,Fiio , Asgard and Valhalla which i believe is a hybrid between tube and solid state). Initially I was going to purchase the O2+ODAC AMP/DAC combo but read that the element is similar but personally i find it aesthetically stunning and some say its even slightly better performance-wise so i chose to pay an extra 30 bucks for the latter.

Asgard doesn't help with the imaging on the HD6xx series, although otherwise it's a good amp for them.

Valhalla would but its power delivery is biased for higher impedance loads. So basically it's perfect for the HD6xx series and other 250ohm to 600ohm headphones; bad idea for any lower impedance, lower sensitivity (ie needs more power) headphones.

 

[buke9]

Thats good to know that its not as "veiling" as people tend to say it is. Also, although now id rather stick to solid state amps espeacially due to price. Would you say investing in a tube amp in the future is worth it? that is, compared to amps like o2+odac or the element.

Haven’t heard them from The Element but the O2 does well with them. The Element is a fine dac/amp though . Was at JDS Labs a couple of months ago for a meet and they let me borrow a EL dac as my Yggy is going in for repair and upgrade and it preformed well I think it is the same dac that is in the Element.

 

[Adelfaidah]

Gain just affects how much louder the signal gets. Gain alone can't substitute for power, since very high gain will get loud but if power delivery is lacking it will clip or the lack of clean power will lead to distortion and noise, but if you have a powerful amp with a very low low gain setting - like older Meier amps - all the 13volts it'll put into the headphones will not get to a point that it's very loud depending on the headphones. That gain setting is more for low impedance, very high impedance drivers, like IEMs or even Grados (although even at high gain it can get to about 8:00, and the good quality potentiometer doesn't have any imbalance).

if you're into cars or at least video game cars (or bikes), it's like gear ratios. You can get a good quarter mile time or top speed, but ultimately you can't improve on both if you're not increasing engine power (or torque curve).




Not necessarily. If it's not clipping nor distorting then no problem. Easiest way to tell: if the sound sucks or bass beats come with a "thwack! thwack! thwack!" sounds that indicates the drivers are hitting X-Max.

If anything high gain can make the amp more susceptible to noise, but even if you




It means you're getting continuous power - ie you can assume that even if you're using all of it, you have at least maybe 25% more for dynamic peaks in the music - at the given impedance load. Power delivery changes depending on impedance, typically when it goes higher but can also be when it's lower (and probably makes the amp unstable if the load is too low).

At the 300ohm impedance of the HD650 you're getting somewhere between the 150ohm and 600ohm ratings. Safe to assume you're getting a little over 250ohms - that's enough power to hit 120dB, theoretically (since gain can affect that but AFAIK at 4.7ohms that's no problem).




Asgard doesn't help with the imaging on the HD6xx series, although otherwise it's a good amp for them.

Valhalla would but its power delivery is biased for higher impedance loads. So basically it's perfect for the HD6xx series and other 250ohm to 600ohm headphones; bad idea for any lower impedance, lower sensitivity (ie needs more power) headphones.

Thanks a lot i think i have a much better idea on the whole situation now.