Burson V6 Vivid and V6 Classic Discrete Audio Opamps Discussion and Reviews
Feb 21, 2018 at 4:55 PM Post #181 of 539

Thanks!

Does it matter how many volts it was designed for? I saw WIMA MKP10 from 100V to 250V and 630V too.

Is there any higher quality MKP caps than WIMA or is it good enough? WIMAs seems rather cheap. Just asking.

Someone from the V5 topic used Elna Silmic II 10uf 35V for decoupling. Is it a good alternative too?

Do i understand correctly: the higher the condensator's capacity the smoother the HF is gonna be? That's why Burson recommends between 10nf and 100nf and not just one specific value?
 
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Feb 22, 2018 at 12:50 AM Post #182 of 539
100V should be just fine. However, I wrote some good stuff about decoupling here and here. I'll probably aggregate both posts here too, for a better visibility and understanding.

[...] a very good explanation could be found here: http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/jun97/basics.html. I'm also quoting some text from the above article, for a better understanding:


"The frequency of the ripple can have a role in choosing the capacitor value. Rule of thumb is the higher the frequency, the smaller the bypass capacitor you need. If you have very high frequency components in your circuit, you might consider a pair of capacitors in parallel. One with a large value, one with a small value. If you have very complex ripple, you may need to add several bypass capacitors. Each cap is targeting a slightly different frequency. You may even need to add a larger electrolytic cap in case the amplitude of the lower frequencies is too great. For example, the circuit on the right is using three different capacitor values in parallel. Each will respond better to different frequencies. The 4.7uF cap (C4) is used to catch larger voltage dips which are at relatively low frequencies. The cap C2 should be able to handle the midrange frequencies, and C3 will handle the higher frequencies. The frequency response of the capacitors is determined by their internal resistance and inductance."

The bypass/decoupling caps are not in the audio signal path and should have no influence on the final output sound, well...at least if op-amps are not oscillating and PCB and it's ground plane are well designed and also the power supply is free of noise & ripple (only a scope will tell us that, not our own ears!). The decoupling caps are used so the op-amps to receive a less-noisier and ripple-free power and not to improve the audio performance in any ways, well...unless the power supply is really crappy and the capacitors used for decoupling could do improvements indeed (though, usually the design needs to get changed if PSU's ripple is too high). So all it matters for the decoupling would be the lowest ESR possible and the best ripple rejection capacitors and a tantalum cap in parallel with a ceramic would make a very good example for decoupling a high-speed op-amp. Tantalums have lower ESR than regular electrolytics and much better ripple rejection combined with a higher in-rush current.

A really good reading about decoupling here: http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-101.pdf.

Some good stuff to read about tantalums here:
  1. https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-electrolytic-tantalum-and-ceramic-capacitors
  2. https://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/pdf/Papers/comparison_surface_mount_aluminum.pdf (last page)
  3. https://www.techwalla.com/articles/the-difference-between-electrolytic-tantalum-capacitors
  4. https://www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/tantalum_capacitors.htm

Usually, if an op-amp is not getting stabilised with a regular 10uF electrolytic or with a 1uF tantalum (with a 0.01-0.1 non-polarised cap in parallel), then the design or the op-amp itself needs to get changed. Adding 100uF or more for decoupling could help when length of the PCB power rails from PSU till op-amps are huge and routed across many active electronic devices (DC-DC buck converters, ARM chips etc.), but adding very big caps for decoupling op-amps it's just not a best practice and if design and implementation are good enough then these big decoupling caps should not get the sound changed in any way. However, a simple oscilloscope should prove this with ease, so feel free to give it a try.

P.S.: I've seen this with my scope and it has been proved for several times in audiophile and audio-electronics websites that the power supply noise is getting injected into the final output sound and this is a proven truth, so I'm aware that a noise-free PSU is the key of a very clean output sound, but increasing op-amp decoupling caps will not resolve PSU noise, nor design flaws of your DAC or amplifier! For example, this is what I did when I had noise, hum and high visible ripple shown on my scope on one of the DACs I own: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/asu...-dac-cebit-2011.542563/page-229#post-13130247. So yes, shielding the transformer, resolving PCB and ground plane issues, upgrading to better LDOs (with lower-noise and higher ripple rejection), increasing filtering capacity of the power rails (+5V and +/12V) of the PSU and adding a dedicated +5V PSU only for the DAC chips did resolved most of the issues with my equipment. Also, using big-enough and very good quality electrolytic caps (Nichicon, Elna etc.) in the power supply it is indeed a very good way to decrease noise and ripple on the power rails as long as the PCB traces and rectifying diodes can sustain the higher load when powering up the device, otherwise more modifications need to be done.
 
Feb 22, 2018 at 8:50 AM Post #183 of 539
I read through what you wrote and most linked. So basicly there is no simple magic solution to increase sound quality, but replacing upgrading adding and modifying a lot parts on the soundcard and maybe inside the PSU too.

For now i only would like to add a/some decoupling condensator(s) to calm down / smooth the HF range a little bit. The opamp itself is past 200 hours burn in period, it is not so harsh as the LM4562 was, but still it's a little bit bright for my taste and sometimes a little tiresome to listen to, or it is not fully burned in, or my the sound card was designed that way, really can say.

BTW why do they call 630 V condensators Audio or High Quality? Also some said that they like to used Vishay MKP caps because they are higher in quality than WIMAs. I need only 1 anyway and they're not too pricey.

But i think from a point i wouldn't even hear the difference.

So a 10nf ceramic cap for HF would be a good start? Or a WIMA MKP 10nf 100V would suffice too like Burson mention at their site?

Sorry for being difficult but sadly i'm not an expert at electonics and there are tons options to choose from.
 
Feb 22, 2018 at 1:34 PM Post #184 of 539
I would try the 10nF MKP, but ideally would be if you could borrow a scope from someone and test if those high-freqs are indeed there. You could measure between both V+/V- and GND, but you could also check the audio signal at headphones-out. Also, I'm not quite familiar with your soundcard and what caps are around the opamps, so perhaps a 10uF electrolytic in parallel with the 10nF cap could help more (OSCon would be best)

Indeed, power supply if not correctly done, then might screw things really worse. From all the mods I've done to my Essence One the ones related to PSU were the most that really-really helped and I'm objective here, because I did A/B tests with an identical DAC.

I've also upgraded the PSU into another DAC/headamp and I was able to decrease output noise to almost inexistent (and I'm speaking about very sensitive headphones).
 
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Feb 22, 2018 at 4:00 PM Post #185 of 539
I would try the 10nF MKP, but ideally would be if you could borrow a scope from someone and test if those high-freqs are indeed there. You could measure between both V+/V- and GND, but you could also check the audio signal at headphones-out. Also, I'm not quite familiar with your soundcard and what caps are around the opamps, so perhaps a 10uF electrolytic in parallel with the 10nF cap could help more (OSCon would be best)

Indeed, power supply if not correctly done, then might screw things really worse. From all the mods I've done to my Essence One the ones related to PSU were the most that really-really helped and I'm objective here, because I did A/B tests with an identical DAC.

I've also upgraded the PSU into another DAC/headamp and I was able to decrease output noise to almost inexistent (and I'm speaking about very sensitive headphones).

These are the caps around the opamp:
ElZ6pxq.jpg


I will buy a 10nf MKP then, and a 100nf MKP too, just to be safe, they are fairly cheap ones.

Sadly no one i know have an oscilloscope.
 
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Mar 1, 2018 at 10:49 AM Post #189 of 539
Great, Onik! :)

I would try the following measurements:]
  1. Measure both rails between V+/GND and V-/GND. You really need to know the AC ripple + noise how look like.
  2. Measure the input signal of the opamp with A probe and opamp output signal with B probe (if difficult, just take pics with both measurements and compare them later). You might want to check AC ripple + noise and frequency.
  3. Measure DC-output on opamp output.
  4. Do the output signal and also steps no. 3. and no. 4. for the headphones-out and RCA/XLR outputs too.
BTW, take care of https://www.tek.com/service/safety/tds210-tds220.
 
Mar 1, 2018 at 6:21 PM Post #190 of 539
Great, Onik! :)

I would try the following measurements:]
  1. Measure both rails between V+/GND and V-/GND. You really need to know the AC ripple + noise how look like.
  2. Measure the input signal of the opamp with A probe and opamp output signal with B probe (if difficult, just take pics with both measurements and compare them later). You might want to check AC ripple + noise and frequency.
  3. Measure DC-output on opamp output.
  4. Do the output signal and also steps no. 3. and no. 4. for the headphones-out and RCA/XLR outputs too.
BTW, take care of https://www.tek.com/service/safety/tds210-tds220.

Many thanks for the info, I did a quick test but I did not get sine waves from V+(pin_8) and from V-(pin_4),but some noisy signal, I will post some screenshots later with/without Coupling Caps and I will then ask you what its really means :thinking:
 
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Mar 2, 2018 at 1:02 AM Post #191 of 539
You might want to measure between V+ and GND, then between V- and GND (if differential rails).

On the input you could apply perfect sinewaves, but you might also try square signals as well, just to check the raise/fall of every opamp.
 
Mar 13, 2018 at 5:08 PM Post #193 of 539
I assume you're trying to measure AC ripple & noise on the 2 voltage rails, right? Why don't you measure one rail at the time? This way it's easier to connect probes from only 1 channel.

P.S.: Be sure not to touch anything around...you don't want to make a short-circuit in there. I'm used to see different probes, a bit smaller...
 
Mar 14, 2018 at 1:44 PM Post #194 of 539
I assume you're trying to measure AC ripple & noise on the 2 voltage rails, right? Why don't you measure one rail at the time? This way it's easier to connect probes from only 1 channel.

P.S.: Be sure not to touch anything around...you don't want to make a short-circuit in there. I'm used to see different probes, a bit smaller...

Yes you are right I was trying to check if there are still any AC ripples even after using the MKP Bypass Caps, but when I connect my probe to inverting/non-inververring input I get this:

Probe to inverting input (V-):


Prove to non-inverting input (V+):


I didn't test the output yet cus really busy with my work so didn't have time, but I will soon post it once im done making some op amps sockets for V6 and for SB X7 and that time I will do all the test.
 
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