[samthegreat4]

Hello People,
 
I have just received my Sennheiser HD 600. Up until now I have used a Samson SR 850 (I think these were something around 50 bucks or something), but the cable went bad. I have a Behringer UCG 102 guitarlink USB DAC to whos HP out I connect my headphones. I compared both headphones by listening to some music and playing a first person shooter (ARMA 2, milsim, with JSRS soundmod). I also played some piano in my DAW REAPER. What I noticed is that the Sennheiser is definitely an improvement in the bass range over my Samson SR 850. But what I also noticed is that the treble is very shy/laid back/not present in the HD 600 when compared to the SR 850. This comes to the foreground when shooting weapons, that trebly snap that is present when listening with my SR 850, isn't there with the Senn HD 600. The sound seems more realistic with the HD 600 though. What this also comes paired with is what almost seems like a bit of a lack of life in both the bass and treble but also the mids. 
 
I have found the frequention response graph for the HD 600 but not for the Samson SR 850. The graph for the HD 600 indeed shows a bit of a lack in the treble. 
 
Why is this? Have I just become used to the more unrealistic but more trebly/lively sound of the SR 850? Or is the HD 600 just not burned in yet? A higher quality headphone amp shouldn't matter for the comparison of both headphones I'd think. 
 
Cheers,
 
Sam

 

[ThinkAwesome]

Lack of treble is a pretty common thing in a lot of high end headphones. Treble gets antennuated making its way to you from a speaker, but not from a headphone that much since the speaker in a headphone is so close to your ear, so headphone manufacturers purposely kill a lot of the treble on a lot of music enjoyment headphones to emulate this. 
 
Sennheiser in particular had a bit of infamy for it's "Sennheiser veil." More positively, the sound can be called "warm" or "laid back." 
 
If you find the HD600 lifeless, try Grado. 

 

[samthegreat4]

Quote:

Lack of treble is a pretty common thing in a lot of high end headphones. Treble gets antennuated making its way to you from a speaker, but not from a headphone that much since the speaker in a headphone is so close to your ear, so headphone manufacturers purposely kill a lot of the treble on a lot of music enjoyment headphones to emulate this. 
 
Sennheiser in particular had a bit of infamy for it's "Sennheiser veil." More positively, the sound can be called "warm" or "laid back." 
 
If you find the HD600 lifeless, try Grado. 

Ah, thanks for the clarification. 
But I thought the Sennheiser HD 600 was more of a recording headphone that was supposed to be rather neutral instead of so much a music enjoyment headphone.

 

[azncookiecutter]

Quote:

Ah, thanks for the clarification. 
But I thought the Sennheiser HD 600 was more of a recording headphone that was supposed to be rather neutral instead of so much a music enjoyment headphone.

 
I'd consider it more "natural" than "neutral". The comparatively shelved down treble does make it easy to listen to for an extended period of time, but it definitely isn't the most revealing headphone to be used as a studio monitor.

 

[thegunner100]

When I first listened to the hd600s coming from the beyer t70, it felt a little bit lacking in the treble region. But over time, I found that I didn't miss the boosted treble as well, and discovered the wonderful mids and bass that the hd600s can produce. I think if you put some more time into the hd600s, you will find the that the treble is still very present, but isn't in your face all the time. Probably the most enjoyable headphone to listen to, from everything that I've tried and owned.
 
I agree with azncookiecutter, the hd600s are more natural sounding than neutral. Compared to the UERM and LFF paradox, which are tuned to be as close to neutral as possible, the hd600 is lacking in sub-bass and treble for it to be "neutral".

 

[samthegreat4]

Quote:

 
I'd consider it more "natural" than "neutral". The comparatively shelved down treble does make it easy to listen to for an extended period of time, but it definitely isn't the most revealing headphone to be used as a studio monitor.

Yeah, then I guess neutral would be the term I was looking for. So would you say that in terms of reality more treble would be wanted than what the HD600 has to offer? And burning in/headphone amps won't do anything in this regard?

 

[Eisenhower]

This is extremely well established regarding the HD600 (and especially the HD650), and gives arise to the somewhat infamous notion of the "Sennheiser veil". They have maybe the most well known sound signature of any high-end headphone, seeing as they've been popular for over a decade. Comparing the frequency response of the HD600 and the Samsung SR 850 (which is the same as the Superlux 668B) would lead one to expect this difference:

 
It is tradeoff between having high detail and presence (= more treble) v.s. less listening fatigue and 'warmth' (= less treble). Luckily you can readily adjust this with EQ (the most underrated tool in the audiophile world). That being said, I find the HD600 to be very well balanced and in fact neutral for what they are. You aren't going to find perfectly neutral headphones at this price point. This isn't a mistake or something on Sennheiser's part, they chose this sound signature and it has worked out very well for them, seeing as the HD600 are considered the most important high-end headphone in the history of this hobby: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/whats-most-important-headphone-history-headphone-enthusiasm
 
This is a great website for comparing the frequency responses of various headphones: http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php
 
edit: I see you've already looked at the FR graphs.

 

[samthegreat4]

Quote:

This is extremely well established regarding the HD600 (and especially the HD650), and gives arise to the somewhat infamous notion of the "Sennheiser veil". They have maybe the most well known sound signature of any high-end headphone, seeing as they've been popular for over a decade. Comparing the frequency response of the HD600 and the Samsung SR 850 (which is the same as the Superlux 668B) would lead one to expect this difference:

 
It is tradeoff between having high detail and presence (= more treble) v.s. less listening fatigue and 'warmth' (= less treble). Luckily you can readily adjust this with EQ (the most underrated tool in the audiophile world). That being said, I find the HD600 to be very well balanced and in fact neutral for what they are. You aren't going to find perfectly neutral headphones at this price point. This isn't a mistake or something on Sennheiser's part, they chose this sound signature and it has worked out very well for them, seeing as the HD600 are considered the most important high-end headphone in the history of this hobby: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/whats-most-important-headphone-history-headphone-enthusiasm
 
This is a great website for comparing the frequency responses of various headphones: http://www.headphone.com/buildAGraph.php
 
edit: I see you've already looked at the FR graphs.

Extremely useful post this! It's very useful to be able to look at a frequency response comparison of my old Samson SR850 (of which I didn't know it was made by Superlux! And thus couldn't find it) and the HD600. What would you guys say? 
 
1) Get used to the diminished treble response?
2) Get another pair of headphones with a higher treble response?
3) Get a better amp?
4) EQ the headphones?

 

[Wildstar]

Quote:

Why is this? Have I just become used to the more unrealistic but more trebly/lively sound of the SR 850? 

Yes.
Never heard the Samson, but I did hear the apparently identical Superlux, and I don't understand how people can stand its treble. Tyll has exactly the same opinion.

 

[Eisenhower]

Quote:

Extremely useful post this! It's very useful to be able to look at a frequency response comparison of my old Samson SR850 (of which I didn't know it was made by Superlux! And thus couldn't find it) and the HD600. What would you guys say? 
 
1) Get used to the diminished treble response?
2) Get another pair of headphones with a higher treble response?
3) Get a better amp?
4) EQ the headphones?

 
1 or 4. The HD600 isn't particularly difficult to drive, and what you've got will probably do, assuming you don't have to turn it up past 80% to get the desired levels.
Most people who insist the HD600's need a very expensive amp will not be able to tell you why. Low impedance headphones (like IEMs) are actually more affected by the amplifier in terms of sound quality. A higher impedance headphone like the HD600 (300 ohm) just needs an amp to sound loud enough without causing the amp to distort. You could grab an inexpensive FiiO E5 amp or even a Behringer UCA202 if you are worried, since those are proven to be good amps for the HD600.
 
If you want to get used to the response, just listen to music for a day and then switch to the Samsung. If you think the Samsung sounds "better", try adding EQ with boosted treble to taste. Or alternatively if you want a truly neutral sound, boost treble near where you see the valleys in the frequency response of the HD600 - the distance to the the 0 baseline should give you an idea of the magnitude. If you find you like the mellow stock sound of the HD600, you might even then try EQing the Samsungs to remove treble!
 
FYI don't boost bass on dynamic headphones (like the HD600 or Samsung/Superlux), they distort easily below 200 Hz.

 

[samthegreat4]

Super tips you're giving me gents. Thanks.
Next question would be how to EQ my frequency curve, but I guess that's somewhere on the forums here.

 

[samthegreat4]

Some time ago the Beyerdynamic DT 880 crossed my path too. Now when you compare the frequency response curves the DT 880 looks like a HD600 with more bass and treble: 

The DT 880 does have a dip between 1100 and 1500 Hz though. Would that classify as a mid or treble dip? 

 

[MrEleventy]

I agree with Eisenhower. I was in a similar situation, going from a bright treble tuned hp (DT880s) to the HD600s. At first switch, they're "boring" and not very interesting but give it a few days to a week and they'll grow on you. Don't switch back and forth in between that time, just use the 600s exclusively and they'll start to shine. I still prefer my DT880s but I do switch it up from time to time.

 

[MrEleventy]

The DT 880 does have a dip between 1100 and 1500 Hz though. Would that classify as a mid or treble dip? 

I would say mids. The mids aren't as forward on the DT880s.

 

[samthegreat4]

Quote:

I agree with Eisenhower. I was in a similar situation, going from a bright treble tuned hp (DT880s) to the HD600s. At first switch, they're "boring" and not very interesting but give it a few days to a week and they'll grow on you. Don't switch back and forth in between that time, just use the 600s exclusively and they'll start to shine. I still prefer my DT880s but I do switch it up from time to time.

Why did you change from the DT880 to the HD600 if I may ask? Also I'm now considering returning the 600s and getting a DT 880. Which impedance is your DT 880? Is it the 250 or the 600? And if I were to return the HD600 and get a DT880 would I need to get the PRO or the normal variant?