Bottlehead Amplifier Discussion / Comparison Thread: Crack, SEX & Mainline
Apr 24, 2015 at 2:53 AM Post #1,156 of 2,108
   
An upgrade to the output caps is a nice option for a slight gain, but you might be hard-pressed to find anything else that will deliver a significant gain

 
I was reading about the TL 404 auto transformers used in a few head amps they are out of my price range around $500+ each but did  noticed a build or two had used alternative transformer the Sowter 8650 at £90 a purpose made headphone transformer also noting similar results to the TL404. Not sure if it would be suitable for the Mainline but looks a possible option and the idea did cross my mind at the time.
 
http://www.sowter.co.uk/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=8665&PN=SOWTER_TRANSFORMERS_HEADPHONE_TRANSFORMERS_29%2ehtml#a253
 
copy & paste
 
APPLICATION Designed to be driven from a cathode follower output stage via a coupling capacitor. Suitable for headphones with an impedance in the range 30 to 600 ohms.
FEATURES Combination core using High grade Grain Oriented Silicon Iron (M6) and Mumetal (76% Nickel). This provides ultra low distortion, exceptional bandwidth and transient response which is maintained over the full dynamic range. Three separate secondary windings are provided which may be connected in series or parallel for 30 to 100, 100 to 250, 250 to 600 ohms headphones
 
Apr 24, 2015 at 12:48 PM Post #1,159 of 2,108
That Sowter description says it's for cathode followers, implying a very low primary impedance. I don't see the model listed at the link, but Mainline does not use a CF. If you use a TL404 - though it is very good, you will forfeit the balanced output as it is not a transformer but rather an autoformer. The one guy I know of who has used them I think did not try the stock ones first so he doesn't know if the setup is better or worse than stock (an unfortunately too common condition with a lot of modders). My experience is that the Mainline sounded better in some ways than the big TL404, dual mono, custom caps, Daven attenuators, etc., etc. design from which it was derived. 
 
I encourage everyone to build Mainline stock and listen to it for a good long while before cobbling it up. It's a mature design with very well built iron rather than a simple budget circuit like the Crack. If you need to make your mark on it - which I can totally relate to or I would never have started Bottlehead - I would suggest putting the energy into the cosmetics. 
 
If the motivation for doing a kit is to customize every part, start with a Crack. The mods that have been done are manifold and range from ridiculous to sublime. One can be entertained for quite a while just exploring the modification archive.
 
Apr 24, 2015 at 2:45 PM Post #1,160 of 2,108
  That Sowter description says it's for cathode followers, implying a very low primary impedance. I don't see the model listed at the link, but Mainline does not use a CF. If you use a TL404 - though it is very good, you will forfeit the balanced output as it is not a transformer but rather an autoformer. The one guy I know of who has used them I think did not try the stock ones first so he doesn't know if the setup is better or worse than stock (an unfortunately too common condition with a lot of modders). My experience is that the Mainline sounded better in some ways than the big TL404, dual mono, custom caps, Daven attenuators, etc., etc. design from which it was derived. 
 
I encourage everyone to build Mainline stock and listen to it for a good long while before cobbling it up. It's a mature design with very well built iron rather than a simple budget circuit like the Crack. If you need to make your mark on it - which I can totally relate to or I would never have started Bottlehead - I would suggest putting the energy into the cosmetics. 
 
If the motivation for doing a kit is to customize every part, start with a Crack. The mods that have been done are manifold and range from ridiculous to sublime. One can be entertained for quite a while just exploring the modification archive.

 
Thanks for the clarification Doc that's handy to know. I remember reading a post of yours pre Mainline that went something along the lines of the hours of evaluation as you also wanted the Mainline to be a reference tool for your own work, editing and evaluating it might have been a tape project post, that reference to being a tool for critical listening has always inspired me about the Mainlines performance.
 
Apr 24, 2015 at 5:31 PM Post #1,161 of 2,108
Yeah... I'm going to leave the Dayton caps in for a while I think. Maybe try swapping out the Cat5 with alternately selected teflon coated copper.  Maybe some BMF 14.7K resistors. Maybe some time down the road for me.
 
I just have to break the "Wow this is great! I must make it better!" loop. 
 
Apr 27, 2015 at 3:54 PM Post #1,163 of 2,108
  Woohoo I got round to making  a start on my Mainline today gluing up the enclosure and adding a cosmetic carbon veneer to the top plate.

 
Awesome!  Looking forward to seeing the glamour shots!
 
Apr 27, 2015 at 3:58 PM Post #1,164 of 2,108
Did any infromation get released about that amp that @Doc B. teased us with late last week?
 
Apr 28, 2015 at 6:52 PM Post #1,165 of 2,108
I finished my Mainline build.  I did the resistance and voltage checks, plugged it in to my Schiit Bifrost Uber and it worked without issue!  It's completely stock other than the paint and wood varnish which you can see from my previous post earlier in this forum (reposted below).  I did no parts burn in before the build, so my first impressions are all on listening to the amp within hours of powering it up for the first time.  I have a Schiit Lyr (hybrid tube / solid state) and Schiit Valhalla (all tube OTL) to compare to, both with many hours of listening and high end NOS tubes from the 60's and 70's.  I plugged everything in and listened to high res audio from my Mac through USB to the Schiit Bifrost Uber.
 

 
 
 
 
First off, my impressions are that the Mainline sounds AMAZING with all my headphones: AKG K1000, Audeze LCD-2.2 (non Fazor), Hifiman HE-500, Sennhiser HD 650, Beyerdynamic DT770 600 ohm (with LCD cable mod), AKG K553 Pro, Audio Technica ATH-m50.
 
Overall, when compared to my two other amps the Mainline EASILY bests them.  An interesting observation is that when I listen to each of my cans through the two Schiit amps, I can distinctly hear the differences between the headphones.  On the Lyr the LCD-2.2 is the leader, but the HE-500 is also good with diminishing returns on HD 650, DT770 on down the line with the K1K sounding the worst.  The Valhalla favors the HD 650 and DT770 with the K1K sounding better than on the Lyr so long as you don't mind having little or no bass.  The LCD sound OK, and the HE-500, K553, and m50 all don't work well with it.
 
The Mainline on the other hand, made every headphone I own sound noticeably better and the differences between the headphones on the Mainline narrowed.  Said another way, each headphone sounds so much better on the Mainline that they all sound really great and starts to level the playing field of the cans.  That isn't to say that it makes every headphone sound the same.  There are differences, but just not as dramatic as on the other two amps.  It doesn't favor low impedance cans vs. high impedance cans.  For example I can't listen to the HE-500 on the Valhalla because it is way too murky and the bass just flabby and horrible.
 
I'll go through each headphone and give my impressions in order of my preference.  K1K is only at the top because of my excitement to have a headphone amp that can finally drive them well.
 
AKG K1000
I know Doc B has publicly stated that the Mainline wasn't intended to drive the K1K, however based on the headphone amps I have it is the clear winner by a long shot.  The Lyr has enough power to drive the K1K, but I find that it is too crisp and analytic.  The bass is decent on the Lyr, but the high end is so sharp that I can't listen for long without feeling like I can't take it anymore, not more than several tracks.  The Valhalla with K1K is more smooth but it has almost no bass, one of the main criticisms of the K1K.  The Mainline smooths the treble out on the K1K and delivers the most bass that I've heard out of them.  I could listen for hours without feeling fatigue and the Mainline really draws out the mids.  Vocals sound so real and the overall sound stage is otherworldly (the strength of K1K) so much that I truly feel like music is being performed in the room for me.  I do have to crank the volume to near max, but it gets plenty loud on all recordings without distortion or noise floor.  Just in case people don't know, the K1K comes standard with a non-removable balanced cable.  I listened in balanced mode with the Mainline set to high impedance.
 
Audeze LCD-2.2 (non Fazor)
So far my favorite pairing.  My favorite setup prior to Mainline with LCD was my Lyr and a pair of 60s Amperex Orange Globe tubes.  The Mainline brings out so much more in the LCD, the bass is stronger and more tight but not overly strong, just a great attack and decay.  The mids and treble are more smooth and the sound stage opens up even more than on the Lyr.  I listened with a balanced cable in balanced mode and the Mainline set to high impedance, interestingly enough.  The sound stage opened just a tad more on high impedance and the bass had a touch more power.  The Valhalla does a decent job with the LCD, but wow, the Mainline has so much more of everything in comparison.
 
Hifiman HE-500
Very close in sound to the LCDs but with slightly less sound stage, slightly brighter highs, and a little less bass.  Used a balanced cable and listened in balanced mode on the Mainline.  With HE-500, the impedance switch didn't make much of a difference in the sound. Also the Mainline didn't improve on the sound quality as much over the Lyr as with other cans.  In comparison, the Lyr likes the HE-500 and does a really great job with them, probably due to the power output.  If I didn't have the LCDs to compare with, I'd love these cans with both the Lyr and the Mainline.  But when compared to the improved sound stage and wonderful bass of the LCD, they get beaten out.  HE-500 with the Valhalla sounds awful.  The bass is, well... sad.
 
Sennheiser HD-650
I thought the Mainline was going to have a hard time besting the Valhalla with some ealy 70's Russian tubes I have for it.  The bass on the Mainline is improved, stronger and more tight.  The mids and sound stage open up a little more than on the Valhalla.  And I feel like I hear more details.  The only complaint is that I start to hear what people call the 650 veil on the Mainline.  It's almost as if the sound is so smooth it starts to feel too soft.  Maybe it's the treble in the very high register doesn't quite match the mid and low end.  I only have a single ended cable so I didn't listen in balanced mode and switching to high impedance was clearly better on the Mainline.  The Valhalla on the 650 is a great pairing, but again the Mainline outshines.  If you're OK with the smoother sound and slight veil, then this is a superb pairing.  I didn't get to jazz, but I believe this match would excel with jazz.  Lyr does a fine job with 650, but no comparison to Valhalla or Mainline.
 
Beyerdynamic DT770 600 ohm
WHOA the bass!  I thought the bass was strong with the Valhalla but Mainline just thundered with these cans and not in a bad way.  It sounded good and tight, not rumbly or flabby in any way.  Of course with closed cans the sound stage can't compare with open cans but pretty darn good for .  But the sound quality and details in the treble and mids are fantastic.  I have modded my DT770 to work with an Audeze LCD balanced cable (same Tiny XLR jacks as LCD), so I listened in balanced mode and switched to high impedance.  Again the 770 with Valhalla was a great paring, but the Mainline brings so much power and clarity to these cans, that they win the award for most improved.  If you don't like strong bass then this wouldn't be a paring for you.  The Lyr also does a decent job with the 770 but it is beaten by Valhalla and walloped by Mainline.
 
AKG K553 Pro
I know it's a little ridiculous to pair a $130 (Massdrop price) pair of headphones with a $1200 amp (not including cost to build bringing it to more like $2K+), but I bought them for portable use so I thought I'd try them out with the Mainline.  They sound really good with the Mainline.  The're not overly bright as some people have stated on the K553 head-fi forum.  For closed cans they beat the DT770 in sound stage.  Theres a little upper mid range crackling on lower volume levels.  The bass is good, not as strong as the DT770 (which is mind blowingly powerful) and slightly flabby.  The Mainline makes these cans sound like headphones on par with DT770 at 1/2 the cost and brings them close to HD 650 at 1/3 the cost.  These are also not broken in with only around 10 hours of use since new.  Listening in single ended and low impedance modes on the Mainline.  When compared to the Lyr, the bass is better.  On the Lyr the bass is very bloomy and mids are not as crisp and clear.  The treble on the Lyr seems to work well with the K553, but really these sound like average cans with the Lyr whereas the Mainline brings out a lot in the quality of sound.
 
Audio Techica ATH-m50
These are my previous portable phones that are now replaced by the K553s.  A great set of headphones and also not up to par for the Mainline.  Once again though the Mainline brings out the best of these cans.  The bass is a touch bloomy like the sound of the K553 with the Lyr.  The mids and sound stage are pretty good though.  Like the K553 I am listening on single ended and low impedance settings.  On the Lyr as a comparison these cans really don't sound particularly special.  I am hearing some slight crunchyness in the upper mids and the bass again is bloomy and loose.  The mid range is rather thin and flabby and there is no sound stage at all.  Going back to the Mainline, they sound much bigger and more detailed, especially meaty in the mid range.
 
AIAIAI TMA-1
"Oh where did these come from?" you ask.  I threw them in for S&G.  I actually don't think of these as serious headphones because I use them as a phone headset.  On the Mainline, single ended and low impedance, they are seriously veiled.  Almost a wash of mid range with very little crisp upper end and not a whole lot of deep rich bass.  Yep, leave them as a phone headset...
 
I played around a lot with balanced vs. unbalanced and the impedance switch. For the high impedance cans: K1K, DT770, and HD 650, the high impedance setting is a must in terms of opening up sound stage and tightening up bass.  The high impedance setting also improved the LCDs in the same way, but not as severe.  The HE-500 and lower impedance cans didn't seem to make a difference which setting the impedance switch was on.  Balanced mode and balanced cables gave the cans a little more gain, but didn't seem to change the quality or characteristic of sound in any way.
 
I have to say, I'm extremely happy with this amp.  It was a joy to build and in the end I have my end game headphone amp that seems to drive everything I can throw at it.  The only headphone that I imagine a purpose built amp could benefit from is the AKG K1000.  All my other headphones excel when driven by the Mainline.  At this point I'm seriously considering selling the Lyr and the HE-500.  The Mainline is far superior than the Lyr in every aspect.  The Valhalla can do a really great job wtih the HD 650 and DT770 600 ohm, so I'll keep that for office listening.  Same story with the HE-500.  The Mainline plus LCD is just that much more everything.  So there's no use for an another planar magnetic that is so similar.  My favorite setup that I'll be doing a lot of listening on is the LCD 2.2 with the Mainline.  What a match!  With all the rave reviews of HD 800 and Mainline, I'm super tempted!
 
-Robert
 
Apr 28, 2015 at 8:15 PM Post #1,166 of 2,108
Wow, thank you for all of that work! You have me smiling, because I just checked out a newly purchased pair of K1Ks this afternoon, and my Mainline was handy so I used it. It does indeed work pretty well. I was also running the levels pretty high, maybe one or two clicks down from max, high impedance setting and balanced output, while being fed from a Bottlehead DAC. We also have a new custom amp that has been designed with the K1K in mind, though it works with all sorts of cans too.
 
Apr 28, 2015 at 10:26 PM Post #1,168 of 2,108
Great stuff. Nice breakdown!  I only have the one headphone, but I have to say... wait until around the 60hr break-in mark. I found a continual subtle/subjective improvement in total coherence from 60 right up to the 100hr mark. Take that last bit with a grain of salt I guess.  But for me, the 60hr mark is where it got interesting.
 
When checked at 100hrs I found had to re-bias once the tubes started to show break-in.  Obviously you must bias when completed the build as directed by the manual.  But correct me if I'm wrong here, I found that subsequent biasing should be done while amp is up to full temperature.  My PT5 hitting just around 55oC is an indicator of this for me. I'll be checking bias voltage again at the 200hr mark.
 
Also took the opportunity to go over everything with some +2.50 glasses on. I think I nipped a cold solder joint in the PS before it became an issue = tears averted. 
biggrin.gif

 
Apr 29, 2015 at 12:46 AM Post #1,170 of 2,108
I'm doing burn in now by running it off of an old Android phone on infinite loop and driving the AKG K553 Pro which also need some burn in time.  I've read on the BH forums that caps need around 100 hours of burn in.  The nice thing about the K553 is that I can flatten them with the drivers down on a table so they don't make a lot of noise.  I'll run them for the rest of the week and see how things change (hopefully improve) this weekend.  I'm already so impressed with this amp that I don't think I'll need to try out different caps for some time.  If anything, I might some day try some different parafeed coupling caps.  And I've read that there might not be much benefit to tube rolling. There aren't a lot of choices in 6C45PI tubes.
 
If there's one thing I would want anyone to take away from my impressions it's the importance of the amp in the sound quality.  The HD 650, HE-500, and LCD-2.2 all sound so good on the Mainline that any of them would suffice for a long time.  Switching amps with a single set of cans is a much greater difference and variation in sound.  This leads me to believe that money is well spent on spending more on the amp and less  on the cans.  The HD 650 with the Mainline would be anything I'd ever need and in fact the HD 650 are so comfortable that I can spend many hours wearing them without taking a break.  The LCD are better but not so dramatically better to warrant twice the price when heard through the Mainline and the comfort of heavy cans and the heat from the leather pads means I can only wear them for an hour or two.
 
In other words.  Save your money spending time and effort finding the right amp to pair with your cans and splurge on the Mainline.  Based on my experience, it'll sound amazing with your existing cans.  Plus it's enjoyable and not complicated to build.  The instructions are suuuuper easy to follow.
 
-Robert
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top