[upstateguy]

Quote:

All I can say is that the differences between my ALO pair and Pacha's pair were HUGE.............

After I relocated my system to another this summer, it took me a lot of time to optimize it again in order to get smooth and extended treble with T1s. The drivers of the T1 are extremely fast and are sensitive to very minor tweaks upstream. One month ago, I was about to sell the T1s. Now, I am very satisfied with them (while I am still using the same solid state DAC / Headamp as yours).
Obviously, we have different HRTF, so the same headphone will never sound exactly the same to different users. So YMMV.

Hi Slim
 
It's always troubling to hear that there was such a big difference from recabling.  If the T1s were so bright you wanted to sell them, and recabling toned them down to acceptable levels, it suggests that the ALO cable is acting rather like a low pass filter.  It's hard for me to rationalize that Beyer made such a grievous error in the choice of cabling for their top of the line headphone.... when considering their purchasing power and the cost of the raw materials, Beyer could have implemented any cabling system they wanted or needed, in order to make the T1 sound as good as it could.
 
I agree with your driver statement.  The T1 is very sensitive to upstream components.   I too was going to sell my  T1s for the same reasons.  I solved the problem by removing the treble tilted and artificially sounding stock HiFace from the chain and replacing it with a Blue Circle Transport.
 
USG

 

[Pacha]

I think I'll be correct if I say that I read here someone reporting that a Beyer tech guy had said he was impressed in the good way after having listened to the Moon Audio recabled T1 at CanJam so I don't think Beyer has explored all the possibilities he could have had for the cable. Plus considering the price of an aftermarket cable like the OCC Chain Mail ALO Audio is using, I don't think Beyer wanted to sell their cans something like $1500. Stock cable is good already but the T1 can really shine when a better one is used as slim.a pointed out.
 
Interesting that you have fixed the treble issue by replacing the HiFace with something else. I guess within one or two years we'll have more other things like HiFace on the market, with better performance. This market is just booming since something like two years which is quite recent.

 

[ardilla]

Quote:

 
@ ardilla
 
A suggestion:  Before you do anything irreversible to the T1s, see if you can EQ them down until they sound good to you.
 
I might have missed it, but what components do you have in your rig?  Are you computer based or listening to a CD player?
 
USG

 
Two rigs:
1) mid-fi CD-player   ->     Grace m902 DAC    ->    Grace m902 DAC (btw cd player analog out gives same "brightness level") -,
2) Little Dot CD-transport/SB touch/PC-HiFace     ->     Naim DAC      ->    Naim Headline
 
Second rig is the less "bright"
 
@ SP Wild - My definition of "bright": Hi-hats, cymbals, bright strings trumpets and saxes etc feel uncomfortable at normal listening-levels and makes it impossible to keep on listening for a long time without pain
 
With regards to the HiFace - I have not systematically compared yet, but I believe that the "brightness" that some complain about must be related to the combination of source and dac, jitter is about sender and receiver  being slightly out of sync. The HiFace is higly praised by many people. Anyway - I don't really use the PC/HiFace a lot.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

I think I'll be correct if I say that I read here someone reporting that a Beyer tech guy had said he was impressed in the good way after having listened to the Moon Audio recabled T1 at CanJam so I don't think Beyer has explored all the possibilities he could have had for the cable. Plus considering the price of an aftermarket cable like the OCC Chain Mail ALO Audio is using, I don't think Beyer wanted to sell their cans something like $1500. Stock cable is good already but the T1 can really shine when a better one is used as slim.a pointed out.
 
Interesting that you have fixed the treble issue by replacing the HiFace with something else. I guess within one or two years we'll have more other things like HiFace on the market, with better performance. This market is just booming since something like two years which is quite recent.

I read that too.  Meet impressions maybe?
 
Hard to believe that Beyer didn't explore all the cable options open to them.  They are in competition with Sennheiser and AKG after all.  With Beyer's purchasing power and clout, they could have produced the T1 with any cable they wanted to and the monetary difference wouldn't have amounted to very much, (considering the cost of the raw materials).
 
Yes, removing the stock HiFace was the answer to the T1 treble issue in my system.  The problem is that T1 lets you hear everything that is upstream. At the time I made the discovery, the system the HiFace was on consisted of 2 transports (Blue Circle, HiFace), 2 dacs(North Star MKII, Constantine) and  3 amps(Woo3, M^3, GS-1) connected to a laptop rig playing flac through foobar.  I was able to switch around to see if any of the combinations sounded better than the others.  It was when I removed the HiFace, that everything improved significantly. 
 
I have since gone on to try the HiFace in my other system which consists of a dedicated music computer, Stello dac , the Woo3, back from testing it with the other rig and a second M^3 amp.  I tried that set up with the T1, 650s, and 701s and again felt that it would be best to remove the HiFace from the chain.
 
Quote:

 
Two rigs:
1) mid-fi CD-player   ->     Grace m902 DAC    ->    Grace m902 DAC (btw cd player analog out gives same "brightness level") -,
2) Little Dot CD-transport/SB touch/PC-HiFace     ->     Naim DAC      ->    Naim Headline
 
Second rig is the less "bright"
 
@ SP Wild - My definition of "bright": Hi-hats, cymbals, bright strings trumpets and saxes etc feel uncomfortable at normal listening-levels and makes it impossible to keep on listening for a long time without pain
 
With regards to the HiFace - I have not systematically compared yet, but I believe that the "brightness" that some complain about must be related to the combination of source and dac, jitter is about sender and receiver  being slightly out of sync. The HiFace is higly praised by many people. Anyway - I don't really use the PC/HiFace a lot.

Another thought:  Burn one of your CDs to flac and use your second rig to see if it is possible to adjust the brightness out with the EQ in  foobar.  The thought is that if EQing can't get the brightness out, a cable change certainly won't.
 
It is true that the HiFace is praised by many people but IMHO, the reason for that is two fold.  First, the stock HiFace plays louder than other transports (according to Gordon Rankin of Wavelength).  This creates the "louder sounds better" phenomena.  The second thing the HiFace does is to treble tilt the audio spectrum.  This treble tilting creates the illusion of "psuedo details",  which are then confused with higher resolution.  Anyway, that's my take on it.  YMMV
 
USG

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 
I agree with slim and Pacha, the T-1s have a bright sound signature (like their cousins the 880s) but this is relative to the 650s.  If you've come from 701s, for instance, the T-1s might even appear warmish and with more bass.  <--- just my opinion

 
E - I completely agree with you on this one.
 
So if half find them slightly bright and the other half find them slightly warm...does that make them neutral?

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

 
E - I completely agree with you on this one.
 
So if half find them slightly bright and the other half find them slightly warm...does that make them neutral?

 I think it makes them relative ! 

 

 
 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 I think it makes them relative ! 

 

 
 

LoL...I was trying to split the difference, but I like your answer better!

 

[dukja]

Yes, I agree with you on this.  T1 definitely give you the resolution and power to appreciate (or discover issues) of anything upper stream.  It is T1 that makes me really appreciate the speed of Ref-1 DAC and it shows clear difference on tube rolling, which also serves as a excellent tool to identify your favorite tube. 

 
And even re-terminate the headphone cable to balanced connection makes great improvement.
 
Quote:

Yes, removing the stock HiFace was the answer to the T1 treble issue in my system.  The problem is that T1 lets you hear everything that is upstream.
 

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Hi Slim
 
It's always troubling to hear that there was such a big difference from recabling.  If the T1s were so bright you wanted to sell them, and recabling toned them down to acceptable levels, it suggests that the ALO cable is acting rather like a low pass filter.  It's hard for me to rationalize that Beyer made such a grievous error in the choice of cabling for their top of the line headphone.... when considering their purchasing power and the cost of the raw materials, Beyer could have implemented any cabling system they wanted or needed, in order to make the T1 sound as good as it could.
 
I agree with your driver statement.  The T1 is very sensitive to upstream components.   I too was going to sell my  T1s for the same reasons.  I solved the problem by removing the treble tilted and artificially sounding stock HiFace from the chain and replacing it with a Blue Circle Transport.
 
USG

The way I heard things when directly comparing my ALO recabled T1 vs. Pacha's stock one was the opposite: The ALO cabled one let trough more signal the signal more accurately in the time domain (with less distortion) than the stock one. (Edit: FYI, the ALO and stock cables use different dilectrics: PE and PVC).

Unsurprisingly, the overall balance remained the same (since most cables measure the same in the Frequency Domain) but there was an incrase in clarity (through all frequency bands) and there was clearly less distortion on the ALO cable (cleaner timber, better imaging...). I go into more details about the comparison in here: http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/5104482-in-what-ways-similarly-measuring-cables-and-equipment-can-sound-different-
 
So what were Beyer thinking in using that sommer cable for their top of the line headphone? I can't answer for them. However, I have a few guesses: there are probably cost issues, bulk, durability...involved.
If they were to use the  same 8x Chain Mail ALO cable, I bet the price would be closer to $2000 (or more) than the current price. Also, it will become heavier... and the market for it would be smallish at best. Though, the stock cable is not the worse sounding one, even by ALO's own admission.
Durability might be a big factor. My favorite cable on the HD650, to give an example, is the Artisan Silver Cables V1. Due to its simple configuration (solid core silver in loose teflon tubing), it broke twice in a year! The V2 is more robust but didn't sound as good to my ears.
A company such as Beyer has to build very robust products that can pass the test of time to keep their excellent reputation. In that regard, many "audiophile" cables might not even be resistant enough for headphone usage.
 
BTW, if there is any device that would show a big difference from a change in cable, it would be something like the very "fast" Beyer T1. As you have noticed yourself, even a change in transport (usb converter) did affect your perception to the point when you don't want to sell your pair of T1s. If I had told you that a year ago, you might have found it very doubtful perhaps.

 

[upstateguy]

Quote:

The way I heard things when directly comparing my ALO recabled T1 vs. Pacha's stock one was the opposite: The ALO cabled one let trough more signal (with less distortion) than the stock one.
 

 
Hey A
 
I'm sending you a PM about this. 

 
E

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

Hey A
 
I'm sending you a PM about this. 

 
E

 
I received your PM and asnwered you back and I updated my article to take into account your comments

 
I also corrected the formulation and replaced "more signal" with "signal more accurately in the time domain". In some ways, comparing the stock cable vs. the ALO one is quite similar to going from a very jittery transport to a low jitter one.
 
In any case, and in order to not derail this thread which is about the stock T1, I will stop my comments here about the ALO cable. No amount of talking is going to change somebody's mind on the subject anyways.
 
However, I encourage those who have the opportunity to compare a stock T1 to a recabled one to do the comparison and share their findings on the subject, whether they notice a difference or not.

 

[Pacha]

This ALO cable is pretty awesome I must admit, I'm rediscovering all my albums

 

[slim.a]

Quote:

This ALO cable is pretty awesome I must admit, I'm rediscovering all my albums

For those who might be interested, I posted a full review of the ALO recabled Beyer T1 here: http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/blog/show/5116910-review-beyerdynamic-t1-with-alo-chain-mail-cable
 
Note: cable non-believers should just ignore my post as I feel that the ALO cable changes the sound a lot.

 

[MacedonianHero]

Just bumping this thread. It's been a while and our attentions have been diverted to the new flagship orthos, I still think this is one wonderful headphone and one of the very best I've heard.
 
I should have my WA2 late next week from Woo Audio and I'm looking forward to pairing it with my T1s (and LCD-2s too I guess

).

 

[Skylab]

And you will love the T1 - WA2 combo - it is really a great pairing. I enjoy that duo regularly.