Best Smartphone for audiophile
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Jun 9, 2016 at 7:38 AM Post #3,031 of 7,916
  Now, this is driving me batty. If you really doubt the owners of both phones so much, why dont you track one down and actually test one. The v10 blew me away compared to my x5, and the HTC 10 should sound as good as well. As it is, if you aren't willing to believe that phones with the same hardware as DAPs could sound as good, maybe you would be more comfortable in other threads.... 

 
take a deep breath and count to 10...
I'm not tracking anyone down (and cannot be bothered to test phones you mentioned - why would I, I'm not paid for it) - just relax, am just expressing my own opinions. I don't need to use every single phone on the market to know phones' sq is subpar compared to a dedicated dac (like dragonfly). I don't care what marketing blurb / spec sheet says - I believe my ears. Since our views are highly subjective - you can't prove me wrong I can't prove you wrong. V10 blew you away! I'm happy for you! keep it and enjoy your music.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 8:22 AM Post #3,032 of 7,916
   
take a deep breath and count to 10...
I'm not tracking anyone down (and cannot be bothered to test phones you mentioned - why would I, I'm not paid for it) - just relax, am just expressing my own opinions. I don't need to use every single phone on the market to know phones' sq is subpar compared to a dedicated dac (like dragonfly). I don't care what marketing blurb / spec sheet says - I believe my ears. Since our views are highly subjective - you can't prove me wrong I can't prove you wrong. V10 blew you away! I'm happy for you! keep it and enjoy your music.

I appreciate your concern for my mental well being, and am happy to say that i am actually quite calm.
 
Addressing your points:
I certainly understand not wanting to test every device out there - lord knows i would fall asleep by the 5th or so device that sounds about the same as the others. But what rubs me is that you make a VERY sweeping generalization based on a bias that frankly no longer holds true.
 
You "know" that the phone (with the same spec sheets as DAPs like the X7 and some others) SQ is subpar, yet rattle on about believing your ears, despite the fact that the products your are bashing you have never heard.  Thus, you don't believe specs, and your ears haven't heard it... so, how do you know again?  I may not be able to "prove " you wrong, but frankly, having spent the time and money to buy and listen to the hardware, I do know that I am more correct than you.
 
As it is, i don't care what YOU like, but i do hate to see others influenced by numbingly ignorant comments, which i am afraid i must rank yours as (which is my highly subjective opinion).  Phones like the HTC 10, V10, Xplay, Vibe, etc are pretty quickly changing the landscape, and i think its only fair to recognize their quality.  As it is, I am happy to support makers who provide quality products, and hope to see even better products in the future. And yes, i also do make it a point to call out people who are openly ignorant, but feel they have an opinion of some value.
 
Indeed, I will enjoy my music, and hopefully give good advice to others who are looking for good units in general, be it a DAP, or a phone.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 8:30 AM Post #3,033 of 7,916
Well,basic principle is all about power being supplied. Smartphones are getting closer and had been upping their hand on the portable audio games. However, to really provide a clean, steady, and powerful current/voltage and it swings....it will never get there. Not for another 10-15 years as we have known it, technology is evolving, but to have some materials that can generate and conduct much power in a smaller package and without leakage = mostly impossible.

It results in what we have been seeing nowadays, the larger....the more dedicated an amplifier....the better it analog quality and sound would be.....just as simple as that. Also, let put digital amplification, noise reductions....etc aside....assuming as small as smartphones are nowadays can do the best of the best to preserve audio quality, you will still need a high-end dedicated desktop amplifier to truly enjoy "high-quality and high-end audio performances". There is no ways to get around it. :D
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 8:47 AM Post #3,034 of 7,916
Well,basic principle is all about power being supplied. Smartphones are getting closer and had been upping their hand on the portable audio games. However, to really provide a clean, steady, and powerful current/voltage and it swings....it will never get there. Not for another 10-15 years as we have known it, technology is evolving, but to have some materials that can generate and conduct much power in a smaller package and without leakage = mostly impossible.

It results in what we have been seeing nowadays, the larger....the more dedicated an amplifier....the better it analog quality and sound would be.....just as simple as that. Also, let put digital amplification, noise reductions....etc aside....assuming as small as smartphones are nowadays can do the best of the best to preserve audio quality, you will still need a high-end dedicated desktop amplifier to truly enjoy "high-quality and high-end audio performances". There is no ways to get around it.
biggrin.gif


Yep. No way to get around signal chain theory. Phones have so many other uses and accurate music playback is down the list.
 
Nearly everything added to the phone/pocket computer degrades audio. It's why some of us still scoff at the idea of an audiophile phone. There's no such thing in my eyes. I also hate the term audiophile, we don't call people foodophiles just because they eat better than fast food.
 
No phone can avoid radio interference.
No phone can avoid sensor interference.
No phone can avoid needing fast ADC/DAC optimized for voice and gaming.
No phone can avoid needing to cram all of it onto 1 board in the thinnest slab shape possible.
Those are all compromises to SQ that a phone can do nothing about.
 
And of course, no phone can afford the mobile power needed to drive hi-res music properly.
 
So yeah, I don't get the push for 'audiophile phones'. Just buy a proper DAP and be done with it. I hope to not need a phone anymore. Any day now, I'll just be tablet, laptop, and wearable, with my dedicated DAP and 500gb of lossless ear candy.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 10:02 AM Post #3,035 of 7,916
 
Yep. No way to get around signal chain theory. Phones have so many other uses and accurate music playback is down the list.
 
Nearly everything added to the phone/pocket computer degrades audio. It's why some of us still scoff at the idea of an audiophile phone. There's no such thing in my eyes. I also hate the term audiophile, we don't call people foodophiles just because they eat better than fast food.
 
No phone can avoid radio interference.
No phone can avoid sensor interference.
No phone can avoid needing fast ADC/DAC optimized for voice and gaming.
No phone can avoid needing to cram all of it onto 1 board in the thinnest slab shape possible.
Those are all compromises to SQ that a phone can do nothing about.
 
And of course, no phone can afford the mobile power needed to drive hi-res music properly.
 
So yeah, I don't get the push for 'audiophile phones'. Just buy a proper DAP and be done with it. I hope to not need a phone anymore. Any day now, I'll just be tablet, laptop, and wearable, with my dedicated DAP and 500gb of lossless ear candy.


Now, i will say, this is at least an argument that is respectable, as it is based around facts and measurable ideas..
 
That said, while i agree with everything you say about interference, i feel like i must point out that DAPs like the X7, Onkyo X1, run into the same basic problems.  They still face the radio interference (2.4/5Ghz) and sensor interference inherent in the phones, though on a slightly reduced scale with no cellular radio frequencies.
 
Your third bullet in a way is what i feel is the big recent shift in devices.  New phones like the ones we are discussing have the dedicated DAC/AMP hardware that other dedicated DAPs have (yes, in addition to the native ADC/DAC), which are optimized for music.  Now, i will grant that the DAP software may be in some way further optimized, but without looking at source, its hard to know what is changed for certain.
 
But you are fully correct, that Cell phones do have slightly higher space restrictions than DAPs, though by no means are the DAPs much larger. The pictures of the Onkyo X1 board shows that the DAC/AMP board is fairly sparse; i am curious how the sound would be impacted had it been all placed on the same board. Having looked at the V10 teardown, i can note that the DAC/AMP setup there is on the opposite end of the phone from the CPU and memory, though it is all one physical board.
 
As it is, i see the best of both worlds in pushing for phones like this.  With my purchasing the V10, i was able to leave behind my X5/E5 combo, and gained the convinience of a MUCH MUCH better UI, replaceable battery, and more features.  I acknowledge there may be an SQ hit compared to something like the Onkyo, but am willing to take what there is for the portability of an all-in-one.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 10:12 AM Post #3,036 of 7,916
 
Now, i will say, this is at least an argument that is respectable, as it is based around facts and measurable ideas..
 
That said, while i agree with everything you say about interference, i feel like i must point out that DAPs like the X7, Onkyo X1, run into the same basic problems.  They still face the radio interference (2.4/5Ghz) and sensor interference inherent in the phones, though on a slightly reduced scale with no cellular radio frequencies.
 
Your third bullet in a way is what i feel is the big recent shift in devices.  New phones like the ones we are discussing have the dedicated DAC/AMP hardware that other dedicated DAPs have (yes, in addition to the native ADC/DAC), which are optimized for music.  Now, i will grant that the DAP software may be in some way further optimized, but without looking at source, its hard to know what is changed for certain.
 
But you are fully correct, that Cell phones do have slightly higher space restrictions than DAPs, though by no means are the DAPs much larger. The pictures of the Onkyo X1 board shows that the DAC/AMP board is fairly sparse; i am curious how the sound would be impacted had it been all placed on the same board. Having looked at the V10 teardown, i can note that the DAC/AMP setup there is on the opposite end of the phone from the CPU and memory, though it is all one physical board.
 
As it is, i see the best of both worlds in pushing for phones like this.  With my purchasing the V10, i was able to leave behind my X5/E5 combo, and gained the convinience of a MUCH MUCH better UI, replaceable battery, and more features.  I acknowledge there may be an SQ hit compared to something like the Onkyo, but am willing to take what there is for the portability of an all-in-one.

so do you think the v10 sounds better of fiio x5ii?
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM Post #3,037 of 7,916
  so do you think the v10 sounds better of fiio x5ii?

Hey!  I was working on your PM about it, but ill give a quick shot here - sadly, i font have the X5II, only the original X5.  I do think that it sounds better (and is FAR FAR more usable) than the X5, and have it as my primary player (X5 kept only as a worst case backup).
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 11:06 AM Post #3,038 of 7,916
10 years ago if someone told me a cell phone that is 8mm thick would someday run, not a pixel perfect version of Grand Theft Auto 3, but an HD remaster I would have shoved my PSP in his face.

"How can you cram the the UMD drive, CPU, GPU, RAM, provide adequate cooling and have room for a memory card in something that thin? And where would the D-pad, analog sticks and buttons go?"

The thing is people love using their smartphones to play games and chip makers have thrown their resources toward graphical development. Some mobile games can even rival or surpass older Xbox 360 and PS3 games. This isn't apples and oranges when you compare it to music playback. The headphone market is bigger than ever, high-res music and lossless/high-res streaming(Tidal and MQA) are rising in popularity.

So a cellphone may never reach the level of a TOTL DAP, but by the time the FiiO X9 releases will there a phone rivaling X7 performance? I just know that I've played more video games on my phone than I have on a dedicated PS Vita or Nvidia Shield and the release of a new dedicated gaming device won't change that.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 12:47 PM Post #3,039 of 7,916
take a deep breath and count to 10...
I'm not tracking anyone down (and cannot be bothered to test phones you mentioned - why would I, I'm not paid for it) - just relax, am just expressing my own opinions. I don't need to use every single phone on the market to know phones' sq is subpar compared to a dedicated dac (like dragonfly). I don't care what marketing blurb / spec sheet says - I believe my ears. Since our views are highly subjective - you can't prove me wrong I can't prove you wrong. V10 blew you away! I'm happy for you! keep it and enjoy your music.


I actually agree with MadCat.

If you're not going to provide anything worthwhile to the conversation, maybe this thread is not for you?

Completely disregarding our quest for an audiophile smartphone when you haven't even tried/nor are willing to try (in order to give an unbiased opinion) any of the mentioned smartphones is actually against the spirit of this forum.

Considering that one should not comment on earbuds/iems/cans if they haven't tried them, one should also not comment on a smartphone if they haven't tried it.

It's getting old - we know you don't have much faith in the capability of a smartphone. Until you ACTUALLY try one, what else you got to bring to the conversation?
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 1:38 PM Post #3,040 of 7,916
I actually agree with MadCat.

If you're not going to provide anything worthwhile to the conversation, maybe this thread is not for you?

Completely disregarding our quest for an audiophile smartphone when you haven't even tried/nor are willing to try (in order to give an unbiased opinion) any of the mentioned smartphones is actually against the spirit of this forum.

Considering that one should not comment on earbuds/iems/cans if they haven't tried them, one should also not comment on a smartphone if they haven't tried it.

It's getting old - we know you don't have much faith in the capability of a smartphone. Until you ACTUALLY try one, what else you got to bring to the conversation?


I have a feeling you may may have not explored enough judging from your one sided tunnelled view. what have you tried?
I own S7 and pureview 808. Previously owned g2 and g4, iPhone 4. I think I can add enough to this discussion. I like smartphones and idea of all-in package. anyways I tried quite few high end / flagship phones and I'm not going to lie they are far behind to what I would expect from £500+ device in terms of SQ. Except 808 that is, it absolutely rocks in this department. Try it and you will see what good sound from a smart phone is (if you don't want to try a separate dac eg. dragnofly). Are you trying to tell me that v10 /m10 is miles ahead of any flagship e.g. S7? I very much doubt it. It may be a bit better but nothing significant. And I'm sure I'm not in a minority saying this. You guys buying into marketing blurb too much. anyways I said enough in this thread.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 1:43 PM Post #3,041 of 7,916
I actually agree with MadCat.

If you're not going to provide anything worthwhile to the conversation, maybe this thread is not for you?

Completely disregarding our quest for an audiophile smartphone when you haven't even tried/nor are willing to try (in order to give an unbiased opinion) any of the mentioned smartphones is actually against the spirit of this forum.

Considering that one should not comment on earbuds/iems/cans if they haven't tried them, one should also not comment on a smartphone if they haven't tried it.

It's getting old - we know you don't have much faith in the capability of a smartphone. Until you ACTUALLY try one, what else you got to bring to the conversation?


I hear ya - I'm unsubscribing. I'm just here to disagree with the premise I suppose. Let a phone be a phone. You know it has a mic on it too but it's not replacing studio mics.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 2:10 PM Post #3,042 of 7,916
I have a feeling you may may have not explored enough judging from your one sided tunnelled view. what have you tried?
I own S7 and pureview 808. Previously owned g2 and g4, iPhone 4. I think I can add enough to this discussion. I like smartphones and idea of all-in package. anyways I tried quite few high end / flagship phones and I'm not going to lie they are far behind to what I would expect from £500+ device in terms of SQ. Except 808 that is, it absolutely rocks in this department. Try it and you will see what good sound from a smart phone is (if you don't want to try a separate dac eg. dragnofly). Are you trying to tell me that v10 /m10 is miles ahead of any flagship e.g. S7? I very much doubt it. It may be a bit better but nothing significant. And I'm sure I'm not in a minority saying this. You guys buying into marketing blurb too much. anyways I said enough in this thread.


Thank you.
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 2:10 PM Post #3,043 of 7,916
I have a feeling you may may have not explored enough judging from your one sided tunnelled view. what have you tried?
I own S7 and pureview 808. Previously owned g2 and g4, iPhone 4. I think I can add enough to this discussion. I like smartphones and idea of all-in package. anyways I tried quite few high end / flagship phones and I'm not going to lie they are far behind to what I would expect from £500+ device in terms of SQ. Except 808 that is, it absolutely rocks in this department. Try it and you will see what good sound from a smart phone is (if you don't want to try a separate dac eg. dragnofly). Are you trying to tell me that v10 /m10 is miles ahead of any flagship e.g. S7? I very much doubt it. It may be a bit better but nothing significant. And I'm sure I'm not in a minority saying this. You guys buying into marketing blurb too much. anyways I said enough in this thread.

In response to bold... YES! (That, and the V10 is an LG flagship, and the HTC 10 is certainly an industry flagship). Hell, just looking at the hardware, the V10 (and others, but i will speak to what i own and know) has an ESS9018 DAC and 9602 AMP; two parts well respected for their quality and power.  Now, i will happily grant implementation plays a key.. but why is it hard to believe a phone with great hardware somehow still instantly sucks?
 
 
I hear ya - I'm unsubscribing. I'm just here to disagree with the premise I suppose. Let a phone be a phone. You know it has a mic on it too but it's not replacing studio mics.

 
No, its not replacing a studio MIC, but it is not advertised nor built to be doing so either.  However, these new generations of phones are built to provide excellent SQ in a convinient package..
 
 
Ironically, i think people are oddly getting too hung up on the "phone" thing.  Frankly, i am happy to challenge that the only major technical difference between something like the X7 and V10, is the existence of a cellular radio.  Both devices run mobile device hardware (ARM CPUs, RAM, and eMMC storage) and software (specifically built versions of Android). Now, granted, i expect a device like the X7 to have better audio filtering, but in the mobile scope of things, we aren't looking at a drastic quality difference (compared to say a full desktop setup)..
 
Jun 9, 2016 at 3:57 PM Post #3,045 of 7,916
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