Battle of reasonably priced refrence systems: Corda vs Lake people

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

  • CORDA DACCORD-ff & CORDA CLASSIC-ff

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Lake People DAC RS 06 & Lake People HPA RS 08

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • CORDA DACCORD-ff & Lake People HPA RS 08

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lake People DAC RS 06 & CORDA CLASSIC-ff

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • OPPO HA-1

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    11
Oct 25, 2018 at 12:47 PM Post #16 of 70
What about sigma delta vs r2r DACs?

I'd worry about that even less than balanced drive.

I'll put it this way. Batting for balanced drive and R2R over (otherwise properly implemented) SE and Sigma-Delta is like obsessing over having a very high tech, 3.6L, short stroke, 10,000rpm V8 in a mid-engine car that is absolutely the most advanced thing on four wheels that you can buy new in 2004 only to go to every race and practically eat all the dust kicked up by one car that has a comparatively caveman in Speedos American 7.0L V8 and a German Flat-6 that manages to just be consistent throughout the entire 24hrs. Not to mention that the overall winner is a German running an engine that doesn't end up in actual cars and whose actual cars are lardy, nose heavy sedans.
 
Oct 25, 2018 at 1:07 PM Post #17 of 70
I'd worry about that even less than balanced drive.

I'll put it this way. Batting for balanced drive and R2R over (otherwise properly implemented) SE and Sigma-Delta is like obsessing over having a very high tech, 3.6L, short stroke, 10,000rpm V8 in a mid-engine car that is absolutely the most advanced thing on four wheels that you can buy new in 2004 only to go to every race and practically eat all the dust kicked up by one car that has a comparatively caveman in Speedos American 7.0L V8 and a German Flat-6 that manages to just be consistent throughout the entire 24hrs. Not to mention that the overall winner is a German running an engine that doesn't end up in actual cars and whose actual cars are lardy, nose heavy sedans.
I don't have a lot of experience with R2R but I remember that back in 2005 they were "good" for music, but they sucked esss for movies especially ones with dts soundtrack, and quieter signal distorted like crazy in general. I don't know if r2r tech has improved over the years or ones that I listened just sucked.
 
Oct 25, 2018 at 3:51 PM Post #18 of 70
R2R vs off the shelf chip based delta sigma are both dependent on the implementation. I thought R2R is characteristically more soft and laid back, but I need to try out the real upper echelon of them to find out (e.g. ones with a great I/V stage, output stage that isn't meant to sound laid back, overkill PSU design).
 
Oct 26, 2018 at 7:45 AM Post #20 of 70
I'll put it this way. Batting for balanced drive and R2R over (otherwise properly implemented) SE and Sigma-Delta is like obsessing over having a very high tech, 3.6L, short stroke, 10,000rpm V8 in a mid-engine car that is absolutely the most advanced thing on four wheels that you can buy new in 2004 only to go to every race and practically eat all the dust kicked up by one car that has a comparatively caveman in Speedos American 7.0L V8 and a German Flat-6 that manages to just be consistent throughout the entire 24hrs. Not to mention that the overall winner is a German running an engine that doesn't end up in actual cars and whose actual cars are lardy, nose heavy sedans.
I can't help my self, I'm obsessing over balanced amps, I found this article http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/balancedheadphones/one.html it's 11years old but maybe it's still relevant. I have also found this review of Lake People RS 02 (single ended version of RS 08) & RS 08 https://www.headfonia.com/review-lakepeople-rs02-rs08-simply-wonderful/2/ "Now, the RS 08 ($879) adds a balanced output to the party. If you have read any of the things L has written about the difference between balanced and single ended output, you will know what I am about to say. The balanced output offers noticeable upticks in the size of the soundstage, and in clarity, but at the expense of some bass body. So in that way, the balanced output of the RS 08 is actually slightly less neutral, as it can come off a bit bass light, depending on the headphones. The Sennheiser HD650, however, has some bass body to spare, and I instantly discovered by the balanced HD650 is legend.". And then there are articles like these https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-balanced-headphone-outputs-are-better that state exactly the opposite, there is a lot of conflicting information out there and it's really frustrating!:confounded:
 
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Oct 26, 2018 at 1:32 PM Post #21 of 70
Wait a sec, isn't @Jan Meier's active balanced ground a type of balanced amp, but instead of bridged mono, it's using a unique config where a single mono amp that drives common phase with stereo summed signal, has ground bridged with two 50% less powerful mono amps that drive stereo phases, therefore amp ground is always in balance. But why do this though? Wouldn't it be better to use bridged mono config, I can't imagine that using 4 instead of 3 mono amps would increase the price by significant amount?
And is it fair to call amps with active balanced ground single ended, when they are clearly not?
 
Oct 27, 2018 at 3:05 AM Post #22 of 70
I can't help my self, I'm obsessing over balanced amps, I found this article http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/balancedheadphones/one.html it's 11years old but maybe it's still relevant. I have also found this review of Lake People RS 02 (single ended version of RS 08) & RS 08 https://www.headfonia.com/review-lakepeople-rs02-rs08-simply-wonderful/2/ "Now, the RS 08 ($879) adds a balanced output to the party. If you have read any of the things L has written about the difference between balanced and single ended output, you will know what I am about to say. The balanced output offers noticeable upticks in the size of the soundstage, and in clarity, but at the expense of some bass body. So in that way, the balanced output of the RS 08 is actually slightly less neutral, as it can come off a bit bass light, depending on the headphones. The Sennheiser HD650, however, has some bass body to spare, and I instantly discovered by the balanced HD650 is legend.". And then there are articles like these https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/audio-myth-balanced-headphone-outputs-are-better that state exactly the opposite, there is a lot of conflicting information out there and it's really frustrating!:confounded:

Because any two properly designed amps that will deliver enough power to theoretically drive a given headphone to 120dB without clipping, regardless of the topology, would only have as any audible difference the type of distortion they'll have. You're just as likely to to use an SE amp you like as much as a balanced amp that you can hate, at least once you get either to a loud enough level to hear some distortion kick in on one first or both.


Wait a sec, isn't @Jan Meier's active balanced ground a type of balanced amp, but instead of bridged mono, it's using a unique config where a single mono amp that drives common phase with stereo summed signal, has ground bridged with two 50% less powerful mono amps that drive stereo phases, therefore amp ground is always in balance. But why do this though? Wouldn't it be better to use bridged mono config, I can't imagine that using 4 instead of 3 mono amps would increase the price by significant amount?
And is it fair to call amps with active balanced ground single ended, when they are clearly not?

Because it's not balanced. Balanced is used to refer to fully balanced, which it isn't. And you don't need to change the cable, so it doesn't need to be explained "oh it's 'balanced' but you have to use a headphone with single ended cables."

What it does is give you enough of the benefits of balanced without requiring you to buy a new cable than what came with the headphone, assuming it isn't broken.

I mean you don't call a twin turbocharged BMW I6 a small block LS1 V8 just because you now have a comparable torque curve (considering the I6 with a four variable profile cams will rev higher than a central cam V8). Conversely, Ducati figuring out how to make a 1299cc V-Twin rev to 13000rpm to hold the throttle more at the corners doesn't mean they'd call it a four-banger.
 
Oct 27, 2018 at 8:31 AM Post #23 of 70
Because it's not balanced. Balanced is used to refer to fully balanced, which it isn't. And you don't need to change the cable, so it doesn't need to be explained "oh it's 'balanced' but you have to use a headphone with single ended cables."

What it does is give you enough of the benefits of balanced without requiring you to buy a new cable than what came with the headphone, assuming it isn't broken.

I mean you don't call a twin turbocharged BMW I6 a small block LS1 V8 just because you now have a comparable torque curve (considering the I6 with a four variable profile cams will rev higher than a central cam V8). Conversely, Ducati figuring out how to make a 1299cc V-Twin rev to 13000rpm to hold the throttle more at the corners doesn't mean they'd call it a four-banger.
I agree that it's not "fully balanced", but it's definitely balanced, according to definition of balanced amp for audio or other purposes, balanced amps eliminate ground pollution caused by the current passing thru the load, and that is exactly what active balanced ground does. Also "Active balanced ground" is a really stupid name in my opinion, sorry Mr. Meier. Because grounds of 3 amps are connected together, I think that "delta point balanced" or just "delta balanced" amp would be a much better and more descriptive name.
Anyway I'm going to see if I can "borrow" some electronics simulation software, and run some simulations of different amp topologies over the weekend, I'm sick of reading articles on the web that sound like corporate propaganda for specific products.
 
Oct 27, 2018 at 2:21 PM Post #24 of 70
I agree that it's not "fully balanced", but it's definitely balanced, according to definition of balanced amp for audio or other purposes, balanced amps eliminate ground pollution caused by the current passing thru the load, and that is exactly what active balanced ground does. Also "Active balanced ground" is a really stupid name in my opinion, sorry Mr. Meier. Because grounds of 3 amps are connected together, I think that "delta point balanced" or just "delta balanced" amp would be a much better and more descriptive name.

Because. People. Will. Ask. Why. There. Are. No. Independent. Left. And. Right. Negative. Channels. If. He. Called. It. "Balanced." Also. Measuring. Active. 3ch. Ground. Is. Not. Done. The. Same. Way. As. With. Regular. Single ended. Nor. fully Separated. R-. And. L-. Something. This. Forum's. Lord Voldemort. Did. Then railed. Against. It. Then. Again. He. Practically. Railed. Against. Anybody. Other. Than. Violectric.

Come to think of it, maybe you can just design your own amp. Maybe use active 3ch and this time really call it "Balanced." Or "Delta Balanced."


Anyway I'm going to see if I can "borrow" some electronics simulation software, and run some simulations of different amp topologies over the weekend, I'm sick of reading articles on the web that sound like corporate propaganda for specific products.

Not sure what will please you. When we were saying don't pay too much attention to all that stuff and just get an amp that some people can attest doesn't severely color the sound, you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay into getting a boner for balanced.

Now you think it's all absolutely a gimmick all the time...as opposed to, ya know, that there's simply not one single way to do a proper amp because if there were then there's that one perfect amp design and the only reason for anything else would be if they can be made cheaper.
 
Oct 27, 2018 at 3:37 PM Post #25 of 70
Come to think of it, maybe you can just design your own amp. Maybe use active 3ch and this time really call it "Balanced." Or "Delta Balanced."
No dude I'm\was technician, not an engineer, I'm not good enough to design an amp from scratch, I'm mostly using premade modules and connecting them in a different ways in the simulator, but there aren't any modules for driving active ground setup, so I'm trying to make my own using opamps.
Not sure what will please you. When we were saying don't pay too much attention to all that stuff and just get an amp that some people can attest doesn't severely color the sound, you're waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay into getting a boner for balanced.

Now you think it's all absolutely a gimmick all the time...as opposed to, ya know, that there's simply not one single way to do a proper amp because if there were then there's that one perfect amp design and the only reason for anything else would be if they can be made cheaper.
It's not about what I'm going to buy anymore (it's probably going to be Corda stack BTW) it's about advantages and disadvantages of each setup.
As a fellow car enthusiast let me put it this way; naturally aspirated low revving, high displacement OHV v8, state of the art Hartley v8, and small turbo DOHC inline 4 can all make about the same amount of power but they have their advantages and disadvantages and those are very clear, unlike in the audio world. I want to find out what are exactly are the advantages and disadvantages of each amp config.

Also perfect amp for me means the amp that does not change the signal in any way.

I don't really like Violectric I have listened to one of their amps and it had way too much bass and it didn't sound natural at all.
I watched a lot of interviews with audio engineers and I saw Lake People gear in the background more than once. A lot of audio pros swear by Lake People amps, adcs, and dacs, that's why I initially gravitated towards them.
 
Oct 28, 2018 at 1:43 AM Post #27 of 70
No dude I'm\was technician, not an engineer, I'm not good enough to design an amp from scratch, I'm mostly using premade modules and connecting them in a different ways in the simulator, but there aren't any modules for driving active ground setup, so I'm trying to make my own using opamps

You can build one using three Beta22 boards.
https://www.amb.org/audio/beta22/


It's not about what I'm going to buy anymore (it's probably going to be Corda stack BTW) it's about advantages and disadvantages of each setup.

Yes and what Im saying is that when it comes down to end results, ie measurements and listening tests, specific topologies are not going to guarantee a result.



As a fellow car enthusiast let me put it this way; naturally aspirated low revving, high displacement OHV v8, state of the art Hartley v8, and small turbo DOHC inline 4 can all make about the same amount of power but they have their advantages and disadvantages and those are very clear, unlike in the audio world. I want to find out what are exactly are the advantages and disadvantages of each amp config.

Yes and I already discussed how that matters at the level of the end user several times.

If you want to do it purely as an academic discussion there's the Sound Science forum. In the end, even if they go into the nuts and bolts, chances are they'd tell you the same thing: at the end of it topology alone doesn't guarantee that results are always measurably exceptional over another anyway.


Also perfect amp for me means the amp that does not change the signal in any way.

Then a Class A-biased op amp based active ground amp will have less crossover distortion than a Class A/B balanced amp...assuming the first one doesn't trade that for other kinds of distortion.

But both the Classic FF and the Jotunheim will register measurements that in theory should be below audibility.

And yet even if you do a blind test with standardized output levels at some point there's some harshness on the Jotunheim that would not be there or at least less noticeable on the Classic FF.


I don't really like Violectric I have listened to one of their amps and it had way too much bass and it didn't sound natural at all.

You sure it wasn't the headphones or the earpads and any other amp wasn't just screwing with the sound in another way?

Because I dont get that problem with Violectric. What they have - or not have - is treble harshness.

That said, put an LCD-2 pre-Fazor on the V280 and the bass can seem too strong. "Seem," because the bass isn't wobbly or distorted, it's just that if you're used to hearing a lot of the upper midrange and treble, it will seem like there's too much bass.


I watched a lot of interviews with audio engineers and I saw Lake People gear in the background more than once. A lot of audio pros swear by Lake People amps, adcs, and dacs, that's why I initially gravitated towards them.

Lake People make Violectric amps though.
 
Oct 28, 2018 at 1:43 PM Post #28 of 70
I have spent 15 hours and most of my weekend simulating amps so I hope that it will at least be somewhat informative.

Disclaimer,
I'm technician (not an engineer) with background in digital electronics (aka computers), this is my first attempt at designing anything analog, and I'm pretty sure it's full of mistakes. Nothing written in this article should be taken as fact.

On amp classes:
Class A amps output slightly more symmetrical signal than class A/B, output of A/B amps can have slight imbalance between positive and negative parts of the waveform. Can that cause a distortion in class A/B output? probably. Will it be noticeable? I don't think so. But just to be safe I'll be using class A amps.

On balanced amps;
One surprising benefit of balanced amps (well maybe not surprising to people who work with analog) is that they completely cancel out any power supply noise, I was able to get very good results with spartan, simple and noisy power regulation, improving power regulation increases accuracy of the amp but not by much. Balanced amps can perform very well with inexpensive and simple power supplies.
The biggest problem with balanced amps is the same as with A/B amps, getting them to balance properly, due to tolerance in components and even thermals, there is also a possibility that components will degrade at different rates over time trowing the amp out of balance.
Another negative of balanced amps is that they will half the impedance load, if 30 ohm load is connected to the balanced amp, amp will "see"it as 15 ohm load. This makes balanced amps a poor choice for low impedance loads.
Summary
Balanced amps eliminate all the problems with power supplies, (ground pollution and noise), that makes them very cost effective, because power supply is one of the most expensive component of an amp.
Balanced amps are a good choice for driving high impedance loads.

On active balanced ground amps;
They require complicated but not that costly driving setup for generating the signals for 3 amps.
Other than higher crosstalk (75db in my design, but I'm sure it can be improved) they perform exactly like balanced (because they are balanced) but because they have one less mono amp and power supply they are even better value, especially when one considers that they don't need balanced headphone cables. They are an brilliant idea, I take my hat off to @Jan Meier .

On single ended stereo (common ground) amps
Single ended amps live and die by their power supply. unlike balanced, single ended amps will amplify the noise from power supply, and then there is a problem of signal ground pollution, so voltage regulation most be very good both to minimize noise and drain current from ground. In short, single ended amps require expensive power supplies, which will increase the price by significant amount when compared to similarly performing balanced amps.
However it is possible to make single ended amp that will measure better than any other balanced amp if cost is not the object.
Summary:
Single ended amp will have happier time driving low impedance load than balanced amp would.
Single ended amps have potential to be the best amp possible, if you don't mind spending of $ on it.

Single ended mono mono (separate grounds)
The same as single ended stereo but even more expensive, to go from around 107bd of channel separation to 113, Yay what a waste of money.

And that's it, feel free to repost this and tag it properly, or to reword some stuff if you want.
 
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Oct 28, 2018 at 1:55 PM Post #29 of 70
You can build one using three Beta22 boards
Already did it with opamps
You sure it wasn't the headphones or the earpads and any other amp wasn't just screwing with the sound in another way?

Because I dont get that problem with Violectric. What they have - or not have - is treble harshness.

That said, put an LCD-2 pre-Fazor on the V280 and the bass can seem too strong. "Seem," because the bass isn't wobbly or distorted, it's just that if you're used to hearing a lot of the upper midrange and treble, it will seem like there's too much bass.
I used stock LCD-X, also my friend who is an audio engineer confirmed it.
Lake People make Violectric amps though.
They also make Niimbus, their sub brands are meant for different markets. I think that Violectric is designed for people who want more colored sound and Lake people for more natural sound.
 
Oct 28, 2018 at 8:30 PM Post #30 of 70
Then a Class A-biased op amp based active ground amp will have less crossover distortion than a Class A/B balanced amp...assuming the first one doesn't trade that for other kinds of distortion.

But both the Classic FF and the Jotunheim will register measurements that in theory should be below audibility.

And yet even if you do a blind test with standardized output levels at some point there's some harshness on the Jotunheim that would not be there or at least less noticeable on the Classic FF.
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Opamps are and can only be class A, but they are used for signal manipulation, not power amplification. From this photo of Classic's internals it looks like it's using 3 voltage regs (one per power amp) and power amps with 2 active elements which would indicate that it's class A/B, and not class A, but I'm not completely sure about that, part numbers are hard to read in that photo.
 
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