[ProtegeManiac]

Woo says that tubes last for about 5000h
"15: How long do vacuum tubes last?

No reputable tubes seller can guarantee the life of a vacuum tube. Typically, tubes in our products may run 5000 - 9000 hours depending on where they are used. Drive tubes (the smaller tubes) are generally last up to 9000 hours, and power output tubes (the larger tubes) about 5000 hours. They do not usually completely fail after this time, but gradually deteriorate as the cathode begins to lose its coating and cannot emit electronics at the maximum rate. The sound usually becomes less focused and 2D like lacking high frequencies response."
https://wooaudio.com/faq/ and I'm running my system for 6h per day on average that would be about 300$ + tax every 2 years.

It doesn't matter if they say 5000, 50,000, 100,000, or 1,000.

My point was that your use of "tubes....degrade" vs "op-amps either work or not" is problematic.

Tubes either work properly or they not, just like opamps. No manufacturer guarantees that the op-amps will continue to work after 10,000hours, and calling the process leading to tube failure as "degradation" is highly inaccurate because your implication of contrasting it vs opamps that either work or don't work suggests that you think the performance degrades on a tube that has been used already. It does not. You can hit 5000hrs or whatever or not, but the tube does not have its performance degrade until you're close to whatever the amp manufacturer says about a specific brand and tube type on their amp. A tube that has been used for 30mins has not had its performance degrade in that 30min use time frame any more than using a chef knife once and sharpening it will end up with such a ground down knife that it's now a carving knife for roast meat or a needlessly long petty knife. Either it works or it doesn't, just like opamps.

Giving you a time frame of 5000hrs or whatever just gives you an expected time frame to order some new tubes if you don't stock tubes, whereas your no time frame op-amp can fail at any time, even sooner than tubes would have in some cases. The work of diagnosing and soldering is irrelevant for you with your skills, but tube price and in some cases, they might be hard to find, will. I'm not pushing you to get a tube amp over the Meier, all I'm saying is that knowing a rough time frame for tube death isn't the reason to decide against it and your contrasting of "tube degradation" to "opamps either work or not work" is extremely inaccurate.

What this is like is deciding between a DSLR or true rangefinder and a mirrorless camera based on how the former only has a mechanical shutter but also has those mechanisms to move the pentaprism or the rangefinder mirrors, but the latter has an electronic shutter and an EVF. The DSLR and rangefinder have rated life for the mechanical shutter from the manufacturers, the mirrorless camera has an alternate electronic shutter just like compact digital cameras. You can't just base your decision absolutely on Nikon telling you that you can only get 150,000 exposures out of a D800E vs Fuji not saying when their mechanical shutter will fail but gives you an optional electronic shutter when:

1. Electronic shutter does not work with artificial lighting, either ambient or speedlights, unless you set it really slow (ie, as slow as compact cameras and smartphones) to make sure you don't end up with those shadow lines (it's from how the pixels in the sensor scan the image by line which shows the frequency wave of artificial lighting).

2. The EVF and electronic shutter can also fail, just like the mirror mechanisms and mechanical shutters

3. Nikon has a system in place to quickly have the mirrors replaced, even if your'e not a pro photog; Fuji does not (they used to...through Nikon, since their DSLRs were Nikons using Nikon F-Mount lenses), Olympus no longer has this in place since 4/3 died out for micro4/3, and for all I know maybe also Sony since they also dropped the Alpha line and A-Mount.

4. Weight, lens selection, and prices of bodies and lenses are far more important than being scared of Nikon admitting you can only get 150,000 or so exposures out of their DSLR.

Also, a camera with 50,000 shots taken does not take crappier images than a camera taken out of the box, ie, it does not degrade. It either works or doesn't work. Yes, it degrades in terms of known service life. No, performance is not impacted as to be contrasted with something else that "works or does not work." Same way that a primary knife that is 46mm tall at the heel will dull when you bang it on the cutting board enough times, at which point it needs sharpening, but no, the knife will not just end up so worn down that it is now a 25mm tall carving knife.

https://wooaudio.com/faq/ and I'm running my system for 6h per day on average that would be about 300$ + tax every 2 years.

Cost is the more important thing but don't contrast tube degradation to solid state parts that "either work or don't work." Degradation is just going towards its death, not that a few hours of use means its performance has measurably decreased. Tubes also either work or don't work properly, and the only difference to the end user is the cost and ease of acquisition and replacement. Op amps can fail in 5,000hrs or 100,000hrs, you never really know for certain. The difference there is you can get op-amps for practically a few bucks, and you have the skills and equipment to diagnose whether it's the op-amps or some other components, and solder.

On a different topic I was searching head fi for reviews of CORDA CLASSIC-ff, there aren't a lot of -ff version reviews, but there are a lot of standard version reviews, and some people have found Classic lacking when paired with low impedance (planar) phones.

That's because more power can be head for less, like the Schiit Lyr. That's why I said 90dB/1mW and above a couple pages ago or so - you can run an LCD-2 or HE400 on it just fine, but not the older planars with 86dB/1mW.

I have also found a few glowing reviews of the HeadAmp Gilmore Lite Mk2, what do you think of it? Maybe it would work well with Daccord.

AFAIK it doesn't have significantly more power than the Classic, FF or not (and probably a little bit less actually).

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

It doesn't matter if they say 5000, 50,000, 100,000, or 1,000.

My point was that your use of "tubes....degrade" vs "op-amps either work or not" is problematic.

Tubes either work properly or they not, just like opamps. No manufacturer guarantees that the op-amps will continue to work after 10,000hours, and calling the process leading to tube failure as "degradation" is highly inaccurate because your implication of contrasting it vs opamps that either work or don't work suggests that you think the performance degrades on a tube that has been used already. It does not. You can hit 5000hrs or whatever or not, but the tube does not have its performance degrade until you're close to whatever the amp manufacturer says about a specific brand and tube type on their amp. A tube that has been used for 30mins has not had its performance degrade in that 30min use time frame any more than using a chef knife once and sharpening it will end up with such a ground down knife that it's now a carving knife for roast meat or a needlessly long petty knife. Either it works or it doesn't, just like opamps.

Giving you a time frame of 5000hrs or whatever just gives you an expected time frame to order some new tubes if you don't stock tubes, whereas your no time frame op-amp can fail at any time, even sooner than tubes would have in some cases. The work of diagnosing and soldering is irrelevant for you with your skills, but tube price and in some cases, they might be hard to find, will. I'm not pushing you to get a tube amp over the Meier, all I'm saying is that knowing a rough time frame for tube death isn't the reason to decide against it and your contrasting of "tube degradation" to "opamps either work or not work" is extremely inaccurate.

What this is like is deciding between a DSLR or true rangefinder and a mirrorless camera based on how the former only has a mechanical shutter but also has those mechanisms to move the pentaprism or the rangefinder mirrors, but the latter has an electronic shutter and an EVF. The DSLR and rangefinder have rated life for the mechanical shutter from the manufacturers, the mirrorless camera has an alternate electronic shutter just like compact digital cameras. You can't just base your decision absolutely on Nikon telling you that you can only get 150,000 exposures out of a D800E vs Fuji not saying when their mechanical shutter will fail but gives you an optional electronic shutter when:

1. Electronic shutter does not work with artificial lighting, either ambient or speedlights, unless you set it really slow (ie, as slow as compact cameras and smartphones) to make sure you don't end up with those shadow lines (it's from how the pixels in the sensor scan the image by line which shows the frequency wave of artificial lighting).

2. The EVF and electronic shutter can also fail, just like the mirror mechanisms and mechanical shutters

3. Nikon has a system in place to quickly have the mirrors replaced, even if your'e not a pro photog; Fuji does not (they used to...through Nikon, since their DSLRs were Nikons using Nikon F-Mount lenses), Olympus no longer has this in place since 4/3 died out for micro4/3, and for all I know maybe also Sony since they also dropped the Alpha line and A-Mount.

4. Weight, lens selection, and prices of bodies and lenses are far more important than being scared of Nikon admitting you can only get 150,000 or so exposures out of their DSLR.

Also, a camera with 50,000 shots taken does not take crappier images than a camera taken out of the box, ie, it does not degrade. It either works or doesn't work. Yes, it degrades in terms of known service life. No, performance is not impacted as to be contrasted with something else that "works or does not work." Same way that a primary knife that is 46mm tall at the heel will dull when you bang it on the cutting board enough times, at which point it needs sharpening, but no, the knife will not just end up so worn down that it is now a 25mm tall carving knife.

I could have chosen my words better, but you got the point. Tube amps are expansive to maintain.
I was thinking about just buying Audio gd D-27 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/D27/D27EN.htm and be done with dacs forever, and amps till I get into electrostats. It fits into my budget so why not just go with it.
but I have a 2 questions about it;
what is the difference between D-27.28 : USD1399 (Dual ES9028 PRO) and D-27.38 : USD1599 (Dual ES9038 PRO included TCXOs upgraded ) versions?
And what is that hdmi input for? My bluray player has hdmi video and 2nd hdmi (audio only) output, can I connect audio only hdmi from bd player to audio gd hdmi input?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I was thinking about just buying Audio gd D-27 http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/D27/D27EN.htm and be done with dacs forever, and amps till I get into electrostats. It fits into my budget so why not just go with it.
but I have a 2 questions about it;
what is the difference between D-27.28 : USD1399 (Dual ES9028 PRO) and D-27.38 : USD1599 (Dual ES9038 PRO included TCXOs upgraded ) versions?

I don't really get in too deep on the digital processing other than when it's for the DSP in a car or HT, and even then, it's more of whether it has the features I need and less about all those measurements from the DAC.

The problem really is that in many cases even when people do hear a difference, sometimes it's because:

1. The "better" DAC design actually has high frequency noise that is inaudible to the ears but affects the driver movement, ergo, the system that sounds "better" has more driver distortion, as in the case of upsampling CDPs and DACs.

2. The "better" DAC's filter design rolls off the top end, which to audiophiles - particularly those who have to deal with either hyperacusis or crap room acoustics with the wrong speakers for their room - sounds "better," as with non-oversampling DACs and CDPs.

3. In all other cases like the WM874x vs AD1xxxx and everybody else debate, the output stage can have a bigger effect, given I've listened to a WM8740-based CDP that I really hated (a Rega that gave Norah Jones sinusitis), most Cirrus Logic DACs and CDPs I've listened to had a sharp twang to it (and yet one operating at 2V via SPDIF was fine, but sucked when using USB+power adapter that boosted its analogue output to a hot 6V) and I've never noted anything about Burr Brown DACs that stood out (apart from Burr Brown iPods vs later Cirrus Logic iPods, ie, the BB weren't special, the CS-based devices just tend to suck by comparison) until the non problematic tone and clear imaging on the Arcam CD72.

In short, I'd worry more about file format commpatibility and input protocol compatibility before stressing over these details unless you can go to a store and listen to them for yourself. If you have to buy deaf, there's really not much of a point unless you buy both and return one.

And what is that hdmi input for? My bluray player has hdmi video and 2nd hdmi (audio only) output, can I connect audio only hdmi from bd player to audio gd hdmi input?

SPDIF doesn't have enough bandwidth for BRA and DSD but HDMI and USB do. So while any modern computer might be able to use USB to send out those file formats, CDPs and even SACDPs couldn't, so they came up with BRPlayers with HDMI as a solution.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

Is there any difference between NFB 1 AMP https://www.magnahifi.com/en/webshop/product/audio-gd-nfb-1amp-balanced-pre-headphone-amplifier and D77 https://www.magnahifi.com/en/webshop/product/agd-d77-38 stack and D27? I move about once per year for work, and stack would be a lot easier to manage.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Is there any difference between NFB 1 AMP https://www.magnahifi.com/en/webshop/product/audio-gd-nfb-1amp-balanced-pre-headphone-amplifier and D77 https://www.magnahifi.com/en/webshop/product/agd-d77-38 stack and D27? I move about once per year for work, and stack would be a lot easier to manage.

More I/O options, marketing decision for people who assume that separating them is better, etc.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

I like audio gd stuff and they look a lot nicer in silver finish https://youtu.be/4zovbPClyxk
but I don't think that silver is an standard option. Is that a custom unit?
I can't help but to think about the Lake people rf stack, they can power almost anything, and because they didn't spend money on relay volume they might have better amps and dac, better sound... maybe...
I wish that there were more reviews of LP reference stack, there are none on this forum, and the ones on the other sites are very basic, they don't even compare them with other products. It sucks that there aren't more in depth reviews of LP RS than those https://www.headfonia.com/review-lakepeople-rs02-rs08-simply-wonderful/
https://headfonics.com/2017/03/the-reference-series-by-lake-people/
On the other hand Audio gd isn't perfect but you know exactly what you are buying, relay volume control is awesome, and I like current based ACSS interconnects, they work like analog video interconnects (RGBs, RGsB, YPbPr and S-Video). Current based interconnects greatly reduce the effects of cable capacitance, inductance and background noise on the signal.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

I have done some more research on the amps

AFAIK it doesn't have significantly more power than the Classic, FF or not (and probably a little bit less actually).

The problem with Classic FF isn't the lack of power, but the lack of current (power in w=amp*volt). Gilmore Lite Mk2 according to this forum can drive most headphones

The GL is the closest I've come to a wire with gain in this category. Even though there is no gain selection, it's an extremely versatile amp. I've had IEMs, portables, full sized, closed, open, planar, dynamic, high/low sensitivity, high/low impedance headphones, cheap, expensive. Grado, Senn, Beyer, HiFi Man, AT, Shure, Denon, AKG, SkullCandy, and others. A lot of headphones have been plugged into my little GL and it's handled them.

No noise with high sensitivity phones. No strain with power hungry phones. It does everything with a very low sound floor that makes it a nice black background. That and the ample power makes many headphones sound effortless when played at even above moderate sound levels.

The GL is a very balanced amp that doesn't seem to color the music that other amp's I've heard can do. The amp is nicely refined and very well controlled.

I'll reiterate what several others have already said about the pairing with the Senn HD650, it's a great mating. Although that Senn was never to my taste, I finally thought I reached it's full potential with the 650/GL.

I think the K-70x is spectacular with the GL. Talk about detailed! And I still enjoy the music. But, hey, I'm a detail freak.

The HE-5LE, which has been said to be a difficult headphone, works very well with the amp. Still the best headphone I've owned. I do have to listen to it with the dial at about 12:00-12:30 for moderate levels. Although it does start to lose some of it's composure at very high listening levels past 3:30 on the volume knob.

The T1, on the other hand, is (one of) the best headphone(s) I've heard. I've had the good fortune (or a curse? ) to spend some time with the T1 and my Gilmore Lite. This is a spectacular headphone/amp combination. I listened to the T1 through two other amps for comparison. I think the GL was my favorite. What, I felt, a neutral paring!

The Denon D7000 was not my favorite headphone as it's too bass heavy for me. The GL did seem to tame and control the bass somewhat. Just not enough for me to like the headphone overall.

I had the Grado HF-2 for a while with this amp and although I felt the two worked well together, I didn't feel that they worked that much better than with the Headroom Micro I had. But I've felt that Grados are a bit more forgiving of amps than other headphones.

EDIT: 7/11/10 - I received the HD800 on the 9th and have spent the better part of two days listening to them. While I haven't had the opportunity yet to compare it to the T1 I can say the GL, again, works effortlessly with yet another headphone with this Senn. The GL really allows to HD800 to show off. More than just a few at the NJ meet really enjoyed the GL/HD800 pairing.

EDIT: 7/26/10 - The GL can't drive the HE-6

EDIT: 7/26/10 - I have now have the trio of the 840/M50/D1001 in my stable and each one of them sounds great with the GL. The thing it does best with the three is help control the bass better. This is especially important with the M50.

EDIT: 7/26/10 - I've had the opportunity to listen to the Asgard and don't feel the amp is close enough to the GL that I would pick one up.

So those are my musings on the GL. Is it the best amp ever? Probably not. Are there better amps? I'm sure there are at higher prices. Will I ever want to step up? Maybe. Who knows? The GL is serving me well right now.

Peace

It can get close to audio gd master 9 (€ 1.649) performance put it has less power, if you have time please read the reviews https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/headamp-gilmore-lite-mk2.22920/reviews I would appreciate your thoughts on it.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I like audio gd stuff and they look a lot nicer in silver finish https://youtu.be/4zovbPClyxk
but I don't think that silver is an standard option. Is that a custom unit?

It looks shinier than the black finish so it might have been powder coated and polished. Can't be sure.

As for the lables, if he has access to equipment to powdercoat it, he could presumably have the equipment to redo those as well.

I can't help but to think about the Lake people rf stack, they can power almost anything, and because they didn't spend money on relay volume they might have better amps and dac, better sound... maybe...
I wish that there were more reviews of LP reference stack, there are none on this forum, and the ones on the other sites are very basic, they don't even compare them with other products. It sucks that there aren't more in depth reviews of LP RS than those https://www.headfonia.com/review-lakepeople-rs02-rs08-simply-wonderful/
https://headfonics.com/2017/03/the-reference-series-by-lake-people/
On the other hand Audio gd isn't perfect but you know exactly what you are buying, relay volume control is awesome, and I like current based ACSS interconnects, they work like analog video interconnects (RGBs, RGsB, YPbPr and S-Video). Current based interconnects greatly reduce the effects of cable capacitance, inductance and background noise on the signal.

Hard to go wrong either way but if you have any topological bias the AudioGD runs Class A.

I have done some more research on the amps

The problem with Classic FF isn't the lack of power, but the lack of current (power in w=amp*volt). Gilmore Lite Mk2 according to this forum can drive most headphones

It can. But so can the FF. I have the Cantate and it didn't feel like it lacked current - K7xx series had sufficient slam on them. Not as much as the Bursons but those have a tendency to have the trailing end of the bass note seem a little overdone while the Cantate gives the impression of it sounding "faster" due to how the trailing end of the notes fade out more sharply vs how sharp the "attack" sounds like. Note that the Cantate sits on the same tier as the Jazz as far as the amp circuit is concerned - used to be it was between the what was there before the Jazz but in a fancy case and comes with a USB DAC.

 

[PaganDL]

I could have chosen my words better, but you got the point. Tube amps are expansive to maintain.

Hi @Sebastian.Athea,

Agree with @ProtegeManaic on many points so I don't really need to jump in except to say, there is a wide, almost idiotic misconception in the audio world tube amps are 'expensive' to maintain, this is really ridiculous among other things.

First of all, without reinterating @ProtegeManiac's points as it is always well said, where tube life is concerned, there are many, many different types of tubes for different uses, which doesn't even include NOS tubes but that would be a digress.

Anyway, the common misconception is tubes are these big things everyone should be wary of, almost like the first lightbulbs when some idiots still preferred candles because they thought there was a constant danger of them blowing up as opposed to knocking over kerosene lamps & the like which was infinitely more dangerous but I digress.
There are ridiculously good tube amps around, which are almost tank like in build quality, some sadly which you can't get anymore or easily, not new anyway, eg Portatube Govibe and just recently, Fostex HP V1.
Both use baby or micro tubes which have longer life expectancy than the batteries which power them for portable use.
Granted those tubes would potentially be tricky to replace but that's another story & very unlikely as it may not worth the effort doing so.
The point is, for decent tube amps, these didn't cost a whole lot & there are certainly a lot more in the last few years now which are not only decently powered for desktop &/or portable use which don't cost much either.
There are even several European as well as American companies which use Mainland China or Euro (mainly NOS Russian tube variants) for their low cost, reliability & the always fun hobby of tube rolling.
So when it comes down to it, depends on personal preference & what one wants to do with it.
This doesn't even cover the hybird amps out there which use both solid & tube, from anything from low cost to the pricey.
So when it comes down to it, it's all about personal preference & tubes aren't hard to get into, it just depends where one wants to start, etc.

As a final note, I've encountered audio gear, in both pro & consumer, where there are some tube amps, in various sizes & uses which outlast solid state to this day & some of them are on average nearly 3 decades older than the solid state gear with nearly no maintaince, not anything serious at any rate.

Hope you have a great day !

@ProtegeManiac, I've already said before, keep up the good work, always enjoy reading your posts, it's a nice constant education, verification & validation of either stuff I already know or helps clarify stuff I should know.

Hope you have a great day too !

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

It looks shinier than the black finish so it might have been powder coated and polished. Can't be sure.

As for the lables, if he has access to equipment to powdercoat it, he could presumably have the equipment to redo those as well

That unit came from audio gd, it has warranty sticker on it, but I haven't seen anything from audio gd in that finish, I was wondering if it was a custom order or something.

Hard to go wrong either way but if you have any topological bias the AudioGD runs Class A.

Nope, I don't care much about the topology, if someone made class d amp that had good reviews I wouldn't hesitate buying it.

I don't really need to jump in except to say, there is a wide, almost idiotic misconception in the audio world tube amps are 'expensive' to maintain, this is really ridiculous among other things.

I was referring to Woo wa6 se specifically, and quoting numbers and prices from woo's website.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

I wanted to summarize the thread so far;
Corda Classic -ff and Gilmore Lite Mk2 look similar but Gilmore Lite Mk2 might have a slight edge, so I'll focus on it

Gilmore Lite Mk2
The Good:
-More resolving than Audio gd NFB 1 AMP (and possibly Lake People HPA RS 08)
The Mediocre:
-No gain switch, might not have enough gain to drive Beyerdynamic T1
The Bad:
-Lack of power to drive some headphones (mostly in 4000$ to 7000$ range)

Audio gd NFB 1 AMP
The Good:
-Ridiculous amounts of power, can drive anything
The Mediocre:
-Big and heavy
-Gets hot
The Bad:
-Not the most resolving.

Lake People HPA RS 08
The Good:
-Enough power to drive most headphones
-Doesn't get hot
The Mediocre:
-This amp is an enigma, there aren't any "good" reviews of it, and true performance of it are unknown to me, but it's basically two Violectric V100 spliced together for balanced operation, and retuned for more neutral sound.
The Bad:
-Gain switches on the back of the unit.


I have also set up automatic ebay searches for Airist audio Heron 5 and Bryston bha-1. Maybe someone will get a new amp for Xmas, and I'll get a good deal.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

I looked at Classic -ff specs again and it does list power output "Maximum output 15V / 500 mA." I guess I missed it the fist time I looked at the specs. So let me try to remember the Ohm's law... that should be 7.5W into 30ohms... 7.5 watts in to 30 ohms! the hell??? Why "it can't drive" low impedance phones then??? I give up.

 

[PaganDL]

I was referring to Woo wa6 se specifically, and quoting numbers and prices from woo's website.

Hi @Sebastian.Athea,

My point, nothing wrong with Woo Audio but they are just one among many & not an indication of tube market in general.

If you're considering a good class D amp on top of the three you narrowed down, I would suggest some pro audio grade amps, eg, QSC GX Series.
There are others, of course, but it is a reasonable starting point...

Hope you have a great day !

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

Hi @Sebastian.Athea,

My point, nothing wrong with Woo Audio but they are just one among many & not an indication of tube market in general.

If you're considering a good class D amp on top of the three you narrowed down, I would suggest some pro audio grade amps, eg, QSC GX Series.
There are others, of course, but it is a reasonable starting point...

Hope you have a great day !

Thanks for your advice, but I think we have a disconnect. I'm looking for headphone amp and dac, or combo unit in 1500 to 2000 eur range that sounds neutral, transparent, and resolving, not speaker amp, also I don't care about tech or class that amp uses, wa6 se is an amp that sounds neutral and resolving, it just happens that it's using tubes. if you have any suggestions for equipment that would satisfy my whims I would appreciate it.

 

[Sebastian.Athea]

I'm regretting the thread title now, "Battle of reasonably priced, neutral sounding amps and dacs" would be much better, it would be great if mods could change it, thanks.