[silverbox]

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. Something a machine perhaps can't decipher is the quality of the bass being emitted; the XB700 may emit a tone all the way down to 4HZ while the 780s cut off around 10Hz, however at the audible 20Hz the Ultrasone sounds like an earthquake while the XB700s a mere flabby car audio sub woofer.

This is pretty much what I'm hearing. Ultrasone's sub bass is ridiculous.

 

[wind016]

Well, I have the ESW10JPN. People say it's a more refined overpriced version of the ESW9a. I agree with the overpriced part haha.  I found the ESW10 not to my liking. I felt the ES7 had more impact from the bass. The ESW is very smooth sounding. More emphasis on the low end compared to the ES7 but it doesn't make the low end punch.
 
I'm not completely sure but I'm assuming the ES series have more impactful bass and has more clarity throughout; and the ESW series have a more tubey sound that is smooth.
 
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ES10 is a bit on the expensier side for me, I'd gladly not spend over 200/$250 or so but it was a good recommendation, I hadn't checked out these and looks like they might be what I'm searching for but what about ESW9, they have similar look and wooden cups and people seems to think it's got a quite similar sound as ES10 for a lot lower price. I do like warm/aggressive sound and wooden cups often helps in terms of that. I love the way they looks and and weight of only 170g, I really prefer sub 200g headphones if possible!

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Hmm so ES7 is definitely punchier in bass than ESW9? I do like the bass to both be punchy but also capable of subbass. I don't like it the way XB700 does it completely without punch and you mostly hear the low bass rumble, XB500 does both parts well. What about the highs on ES7 and how are they compared to the Ultrasones, I haven't tried Ultrasone but from graphs they seem rather bright/sparkly in the highs especially at 8-10kHz which isn't really what I might like myself I think.

 

[wind016]

The Ultrasones DO have bright highs. It's is even more apparent on their open-headphone variants which I found unbearably piercing. The closed design tames the highs, but I am not sure whether it tames it enough for you. You'd have to try to know but it tamed it substantially for me.
 
The ES7 may not have the sub-bass you'd like. It has great mid-bass punch. The sub-bass, I don't remember it being very prominent if at all. The lack of sub-bass may also be what helps it sound more clear since sub-bass in headphones tend to run around and infringe on the rest of the sound.
 
Quote:

Hmm so ES7 is definitely punchier in bass than ESW9? I do like the bass to both be punchy but also capable of subbass. I don't like it the way XB700 does it completely without punch and you mostly hear the low bass rumble, XB500 does both parts well. What about the highs on ES7 and how are they compared to the Ultrasones, I haven't tried Ultrasone but from graphs they seem rather bright/sparkly in the highs especially at 8-10kHz which isn't really what I might like myself I think.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

What about ATH-WS70 then? I just saw another thread and people seem to like it.

 

[Doofdoofwoof]

The ATH WS70 are incredible, you will love them! honestly. Fun is the word.
I love Hip Hop and Electronic so I love good bassy clear headphones and I can say that the sound is unreal...you will not be disappointed! only thing is that they're made in China, but the sound is very much Japanese, so perhaps they've got good QA.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Would gladly get some more info about how mids and highs sounds like and if they are more like warm/aggressive or laid-back sounding and how the bass is, if it's capable of very deep or if it's very punchy etc.
 
I don't like headphones that have bright highs and exaggerates them that quickly starts dominating in sound, I prefer a smoother presentation so mids and bass can shine instead. To me that creates a more "full" sound to it, the highs can make the sound seem a bit thin.
 
But I'm prolly gonna stick to this XB500 for a while, I'm really satisfied with it, can't believe I paid only 43 EUR for it. xD

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

I dunno about the Pro but the Ultrasone HFI-780s extend lower than the Sony XB range, not only is the extension better but the bass is well controlled. Those FR graphs are off, for instance compare the bass heavy HFI-780 with the bass light AKG K701...

I must be one of those who just "don't get" Ultrasones, as I've heard the 780s and they don't even compare to the XB700 in bass. 
 
The 780s sound like the Klipsch S4s to me. Bright, metallic and bassy but not as bassy as, say, the Fischer Eternas or the Hippo Boom, which are more comparable to the XB700. (and yes, the XB700 is bassier than those two IEMs).
 
Now, whether the XB700 sounds like a cheap car sub or not.... well I'll probably agree with you there. But "earthquake" is not how I'd describe the 780s.

 

[Mochan]

This is a case where my experience differs. The XB700 had a very wide soundstage to my ears.
 
The Pro 900s do have a huge amount of bass impact, way, way more than the 780s, but I don't know about that 10" to 15" comparison. Again, I must be one of those who don't "get" Ultrasones or something. I did like the impact of the Pro900s when it came to bass, but the Pro 900s to me didn't have that deep rumble the XB700s have. They had hard hitting bass, not low-reaching bass, all-engulfing bass. 
 
Quote:

There is no comparison.
 
XB700 - 10" sub (maybe 12

)
PRO900 - 15" sub
 
EDIT: They also don't reach as low. I'm listening to XB700 right now after listening to PRO 900 for about 2 hours. Same music.
 
Also wow XB700s have really narrow soundstage.
 
EDIT 2: 50hz and under sounds louder on PRO900.

 

[shamrock134]

 
These songs rumble more with my Pro900 than my XB700.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN7wMfBEosc
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGnaxYhO954

 

[Mochan]

Hey dude, here's what I can say. 
 
The M50, under $200, is hard to beat. If you love its sound sig, and can live with its weaknesses in soundstage and congestion, there really isn't much else to go to until you break the $300 mark or so. I would stay away from all of the Ultrasones, I haven't tried all the ones you listed but the ones I did try are metallic to a fault and it seems you're not after that.
 
Out of all those, your best option IMO is the Beyer DT770 Pro. Next would be the D2000 (surprise these are the non Ultrasones haha). Are these cans going for under $200 these days? If so then they might be a good increment up from the M50. However I'd be careful as their midrange isn't what I'd term as "very good."  The M50s had incredible midrange -- I often say they killed SR series Grados in the midrange without batting an eyelash.
 
The only option I can think of to recommend is the Shure SRH750 which goes for around the same price as the M50. It has punchier bass than the M50, but lesser actually. I usually define the SRH750 as a "more refined" M50. Less but punchier and better controlled bass, slightly better mids in terms of clarity and detail, better soundstage, more crystalline highs but not going over to metallic or head-piercing. It addresses some of the weaknesses of the M50 that I found, but gives up some of that beautiful bass. I can't really think of a can that perfectly fits your criteria of punchier bass, very good midrange and decent highs compared to the M50 -- maybe you can get a Grado and mod it to get the kind of sound you need. I have a modded SR Grado that sounds a bit close to what you're describing, but it's a one-of-a-kind product.
 
As for what $150 amp to get, not too sure on that one. I don't have much experience with amps in that price range, in fact the only ones I've had around or below that price are the Little Dot MkII and Q. The rest of which I've heard hover around the $200 to $300 price range.
 
 
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So, is there (or rather can there be) a consensus winner? I currently have a M50 that I power through a Musiland Monitor 02 DAC (no amp yet - scouting for one) and I can't imagine anything sounding better than this. I absolutely love the sound signature. But, I see and believe that there are far better options if I am willing to spend a bit more for a better headphone (I can afford ~$200 but no more this year). I would love to get a headphone (closed / open) with *punchier* bass and a *very good* mid range and *decent* highs. I am very sensitive to metallic / piercing highs and wouldn't really mind rolled off highs if the headphone has superb bass and mid range to make up for it. How do you guys rank these based on these criterion
1) D2000
2) Hfi 580
3) Hfi 780
4) Pro 2500
5) Pro 750
6) XB700
7) DT770 - Pro80 (I believe that is the punchiest Beyer)
8) DT990 - Pro
Assume that the system would be foobar -> Musiland monitor 02 -> Some Amp (<$150) -> headphone
Also, it would be great if you can suggest amps (Tube/solid state) that would give me a warmer sound and are < $150.
Waiting for replies .....

 

[Mochan]

Quote:

What headphone would you say would be my best pick in case I upgrade in future, I like very aggressive/forward sounding headphones and find headphones like HD650/XB700 a bit boring cuz of the laid-back sound signature. I'd prefer closed and the better ambient noise isolation the better. I want as much bass quantity as possible as I end up EQing even Sony XB series a bit, ATH-M50 was slightly too weak in bass department for my liking. I want it to be as easily driven as possible. I prefer smooth/dark highs and non-recessed "meaty"/full sounding mids. Also I play a lot of UT3 and I really like to get the best possible 3D positional sound as it's such a big aid in online gaming.
 
I do like my XB500 a lot cuz it's got the sound signature I like, very aggressive sound (compare to boosting rather than lowering sliders on EQ), smooth highs, LOTS of bass but I think there's probably some headphones that could be better in terms of 3D positional sound, the behind/front locations aren't the most easily detected ones with the XB500 but if I listen closely I can usually detect the locations. I'm a bit afraid it doesn't exist any expensier headphone than XB500 that has similar but better sound according to my prefers, I know exactly what I want but seems hard to find one that matches it completely, I even sold Beyer DT770/80 Pro and ATH-M50 in favor for keeping Sony XB500.
 
It's a bit like I'd wanna combine XB500's bass and aggressive sound signature with HD650's highs and S-logic from Ultrasone for better surround sound and also asthetics/design of Ultrasone.

Pretty tall order, haven't heard anything to match what you want, since you're looking for basically an aggressive HD650, that kind of rules out all the Ultrasones, which would have been perfect if not for their highs. The only thing I can think of for you to try is the Phiaton MS400, which might be what you are looking for... but I have not actually tried these yet (only tried the MS300).
 
 
*** EDIT ***

Wait I just realized I've heard something that is exactly what you described. Unfortunately. It costs $1000 and has a few months waiting line.
 
It's called the Lord of all Cans, Dominus II.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Quote:

Pretty tall order, haven't heard anything to match what you want, since you're looking for basically an aggressive HD650, that kind of rules out all the Ultrasones, which would have been perfect if not for their highs. The only thing I can think of for you to try is the Phiaton MS400, which might be what you are looking for... but I have not actually tried these yet (only tried the MS300).
 
 
*** EDIT ***

Wait I just realized I've heard something that is exactly what you described. Unfortunately. It costs $1000 and has a few months waiting line.
 
It's called the Lord of all Cans, Dominus II.

Yea an aggressive HD650 with slightly more bass would be optimal to me. LCD-2 how I wish I was able to at least test one. :s

 

[Graphicism]

Quote:

I must be one of those who just "don't get" Ultrasones, as I've heard the 780s and they don't even compare to the XB700 in bass. 
 
The 780s sound like the Klipsch S4s to me. Bright, metallic and bassy but not as bassy as, say, the Fischer Eternas or the Hippo Boom, which are more comparable to the XB700. (and yes, the XB700 is bassier than those two IEMs).
 
Now, whether the XB700 sounds like a cheap car sub or not.... well I'll probably agree with you there. But "earthquake" is not how I'd describe the 780s.

When I first heard the 780s a couple years ago now I didn't like them at first, they were brighter than I was used too and somewhat bass shy compared to the Denon D2000s I had previously. I bought them used so it wasn't a burn in issue. Anyway after a few nights of listening I got used to the sound signature and went through my collection of music. Going back to the likes of Denons, Sennheiser HD580 and Sony XB500 I found them all to be recessed (laid back boring mids) and uninvolving overall. The Ultrasones are very forward aggressive, yet balanced in their sound; think Grado with more bass and soundstage, at least a different approach to the soundstage. Because of the nature of the Ultrasones this is not only why the FR graphs are all off but the reason some people love them while others do not. Thing is if you spend a decent amount of time with a well burned in pair (some say 300-500 hours) you'll be a believer too and it will be hard to go back.
 
In regards to the bass, we could be talking about different frequencies here. The Sony XB500 (and 700 somewhat) are like listening to a sub woofer in the back of a car, very utch' utch' deep bass that lingers longer than it should. The Ultrasones I'd compare to queuing for popcorn at the movie theatre and you hear the deep resonating bass seeping through the walls and floor from an explosion in one of the auditoriums... or that deep reverberating rumble you hear inside your house as a truck sits idle outside, it gets low, real low, and you know what it is because of the detail. The Sony XB headphones do go low but detail is ultimately lost and thus not as impactful. In short the XBs are bass-trigger-happy and stick around for longer than they should, the Ultrasones are somewhat reserved and only come out when called for.

 

[proteinpig]

Thanks for the detailed opinion

So, Little Dot I+ with D2000 would be the best then. I don't want to take a double step directly to HD650 or Pro900 or D5000 (I can't afford to do that now

). Want to take one step at a time to appreciate the improvement in the SQ.
 
Quote:

Pretty much all the Beyers have rather strong highs so you'll probably want to scratch those off the list.
 
The M50 is better than the XB700 everywhere but the bass, so that trade off is up to you.  You will need a strong (high current, low output impedance) amp for the XB700s.
 
The D2000 can produce tremendous amounts of bass with the right EQ settings, but is only slightly above average bass-wise without extra assistance.  It does have a bit of sibilance as well.  It will need a strong amp too.  It probably won't sound any better than your M50s without one, possibly worse.  I remember liking the mids though.
 
I've only ever heard the HFI 780 for a few minutes, and don't remember a whole lot about it.  I've never heard the other Ultrasones on your list either, so 'no comment'.
 
For amps I'd look into either a Little Dot I+ or a Millett Starving Student Hybrid, used in order to fit your budget.  I don't know a whole lot about either one, so consider these jumping off points into your own research and not solid recommendations.  Either should be good for low-ish impedance 'phones, which is what's left on your list after scratching off the Beyers.  If you want to save a bit more money, one of the Bravo/Indeed/Muse/etc clone Chinese hybrid amps that are all over ebay would be decent.  They sacrifice some fidelity to meet the lower price point, but they sound nice and are plenty strong.  I have one of the Indeed G2s myself, and it's strong enough for the XB700s.  I think it'd be strong enough for the D2000s as well.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that the M50s have a very strong price to performance ratio.  Most of these other options are either not any better overall (just different sounding), or only marginally better.  You'll need to spend a lot more money if you want another 'holy $#!+' leap like you probably got when you upgraded from iBuds (or whatever) to your M50s.  Diminishing returns and such.