[grawk]

The benefits are that + and - are both amplified, resulting in greater speed and control. You effectively quadruple the power available to the speakers.

 

[vvanrij]

Do they also balance speakers?? Or is that just bi-wiring?

 

[grawk]

if you drive a speaker with a push pull amp, it works on the same concept. Bi-wiring is something different.

 

[Philco]

You can use a high powered and faster single-ended amp and get the same results as far as power and speed are concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif The benefits are that + and - are both amplified, resulting in greater speed and control. You effectively quadruple the power available to the speakers.

 

[Philco]

I think ignorance is mainly falling for the ridiculous technical arguments that most companies provide to audiophiles about balanced drive, cables, transport mechanisms, etc. In the end I'd say there is partly some truth to those claims, but they are stretched way too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ignorance is bliss, eh?

 

[grawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can use a high powered and faster single-ended amp and get the same results as far as power and speed are concerned.

Sure, but in comparing similar designs, one that's balanced and one that's not, the balanced amp will be significantly better. I have verified that a number of times, since my amp is capable of being used single ended or balanced.

 

[Philco]

Different, yes, maybe. Better? Not sure.

A balanced amp requires a phase inverter stage somewhere in the signal path and it introduces a delay that maybe makes balanced sound different than single-ended. Is it technically better than single ended? No, of course! Single ended has no technical limitations whatsoever, there is no need to go balanced at all from a technical standpoint. Also beware that most of the time, adding an inverter stage doesn't only add time delay, but some phase delay at certain frequencies, as the transfer function for the push and pull amps are certainly not exactly the same. In the end, the less complex the amping circuit (i.e. single ended) the less processing you do to your signal and the better the sound will be. If you hear otherwise, then read on....

I try not to question your ears, because you already know my position about that. I think 99.9999% of all that stuff is placebo effect. If you switch your amp to balanced, you will suggest to your brain to think that it sounds better so that you didn't pay $$$ for nothing. This applies a lot to cables.

But still, I try not to question your ears....so maybe you just like the coloration added by the additional stages required to run balanced in your particular amp ? THAT would make sense to me.

In the end, it's what you think that is important for you.
Without people like you, many amp and cable business would not run anymore. They should send you a thank you letter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sure, but in comparing similar designs, one that's balanced and one that's not, the balanced amp will be significantly better. I have verified that a number of times, since my amp is capable of being used single ended or balanced.

 

[elrod-tom]

OK folks, let's just settle down a bit here....

 

[grawk]

The balanced amp doesn't REQUIRE a phase inversion stage. What it requires is a balanced signal being fed to it. In my case, I have both balanced sources and a transformer balancing stage. There isn't a switch between balanced and unbalanced output. I can plug in balanced cable, and get all 4 amp circuits, or I can plug in an unbalanced cable, and get just 2. There's no time smear involved, as the signal path is exactly the same with the exception of only half the amps being used in unbalanced mode.

 

[aaron313]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif Different, yes, maybe. Better? Not sure. A balanced amp requires a phase inverter stage somewhere in the signal path and it introduces a delay that maybe makes balanced sound different than single-ended. Is it technically better than single ended? No, of course! Single ended has no technical limitations whatsoever, there is no need to go balanced at all from a technical standpoint. Also beware that most of the time, adding an inverter stage doesn't only add time delay, but some phase delay at certain frequencies, as the transfer function for the push and pull amps are certainly not exactly the same. In the end, the less complex the amping circuit (i.e. single ended) the less processing you do to your signal and the better the sound will be. If you hear otherwise, then read on.... I try not to question your ears, because you already know my position about that. I think 99.9999% of all that stuff is placebo effect. If you switch your amp to balanced, you will suggest to your brain to think that it sounds better so that you didn't pay $$$ for nothing. This applies a lot to cables. But still, I try not to question your ears....so maybe you just like the coloration added by the additional stages required to run balanced in your particular amp ? THAT would make sense to me. In the end, it's what you think that is important for you. Without people like you, many amp and cable business would not run anymore. They should send you a thank you letter.

You are being quite disrespectful to grawk, and should just stop it right now. I'm not going to get into it, but there are theoretical reasons why balanced is superior. My dad has a BA and MS in EE from top schools, and he recognized that balanced is a superior topology. You are right that some of the primary theoretical differences might be difficult to hear in practice, but the theory is still borne out in practice, however subtle. Have you EVER even HEARD a balanced amp?

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco /img/forum/go_quote.gif Different, yes, maybe. Better? Not sure. A balanced amp requires a phase inverter stage somewhere in the signal path and it introduces a delay that maybe makes balanced sound different than single-ended. Is it technically better than single ended? No, of course! Single ended has no technical limitations whatsoever, there is no need to go balanced at all from a technical standpoint. Also beware that most of the time, adding an inverter stage doesn't only add time delay, but some phase delay at certain frequencies, as the transfer function for the push and pull amps are certainly not exactly the same. In the end, the less complex the amping circuit (i.e. single ended) the less processing you do to your signal and the better the sound will be. If you hear otherwise, then read on.... I try not to question your ears, because you already know my position about that. I think 99.9999% of all that stuff is placebo effect. If you switch your amp to balanced, you will suggest to your brain to think that it sounds better so that you didn't pay $$$ for nothing. This applies a lot to cables. But still, I try not to question your ears....so maybe you just like the coloration added by the additional stages required to run balanced in your particular amp ? THAT would make sense to me. In the end, it's what you think that is important for you. Without people like you, many amp and cable business would not run anymore. They should send you a thank you letter.

Could you please stop talking nonsense about something you obviously have no experience with?
I advise you to listen, learn and shut up about things you don't know anything about.

 

[pabbi1]

It would seem that for those of us willing to pay 2x and suffer x³ in difficulty to build balanced amps / cables / sources there must be something to it.

 

[elrod-tom]

Excuse me folks, but a few of you have apparently forgotten your manners.

I'm going to have to start deleting posts and issuing warnings if y'all can't play nice, so please do.

 

[espire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Could you please stop talking nonsense about something you obviously have no experience with? I advise you to listen, learn and shut up about things you don't know anything about.

Don't you think that's a bit overly aggressive, in addition to being more of a flame than advice?

Philco, come on now. Regardless of who's "right" and in what sense, how do you think you'd feel if you were in the shoes of these enraged audiophiles, being told that they were lying to themselves for the sake of feeling superior? Give them a break, Head-Fi is their element. While I don't always feel totally at home here, being that I don't fully believe in cables, analog, burn-in, or, well, balanced, I still try to be as respectful as possible when discussing these topics.

 

[grawk]

Condescending isn't being respectful any more than being aggressive is. This isn't about "belief". The increase in speed and power is measurable and documented. Having two amps working together isn't voodoo. Whether you think it's a worthwhile task is completely up to you but some of the great values in headphone amplification are balanced amps.