[belisk]

Big question
 
I can tell you one thing, the DF opened up the soundstage by quite a bit on the Signature Pro's, using the Q701 as a benchmark, on a scale of 1-10, the Q701 being a 10, the SP being a 8, which is excellent for gaming, i now use them as my primary gaming setup, so thats saying alot about the DF in regards to soundstage.
imo the SP+DF is lean/tight, clear, analytic.
 
As for the comparison to other devices using the SP, i can give you 3 comparisons, the Audioengine D1 is definitely dinky pair, the M-Stage(set to 10) is a "OK", the laptop is complete garbage, the DF blows them out of the water.
 
cant comment on 3rd question.

 

[revenge]

Thanks for your comment. SP is definitely lacking in soundstage so that is a big plus. 
 
How about this comment with various headphones: smoothed over, obscured detail, sound signature shifting downward, lovely midrange (generally translating in a warm sound signature), bloated sound.   
 
 

1) I believe I'm pretty much hearing the same thing I heard with my first unit on my EPH-100s - a fuller but tending toward bloated sound.  Perhaps bloated is the wrong word, more like it lacks dynamic punch a bit, smoothed over.  That said, the midrange is esp. lovely and timber does seem more accurate though overall, drums sound more like drums, etc... it's not bad and I could see many preferring this sound, but at least at this early juncture I'm more into my MBA's out.  It's like its making a colored 'fun' sounding phone a little too fun.
 
2) Also tried with Etymotic HF2 (also fairly low impedance at 16 ohms) I had lying around and it's also a mixed bag... bass actually comes in with better presence, there is a better sense of space, but details are a bit obscured.  It almost makes these perform more like dynamic drivers, but oddly enough it makes it seem a bit more sibilant in places even though overall the sound signature seems to shift downward.  Not a fan of the Ety sound fwiw but it does make these phones more listenable to me so I actually prefer it.  But I would take the DF -> EPH-100 anyday.
 
3) Tried with some Edition 8s... now we're talking.  Really good pairing.  Everything sounds more alive/dynamic/fleshed out, just a tiny lack of control in the bass that could possibly go away with a good burn-in. 
 

 
Another interesting question for a potential buyer would be, of course, compatibility, synergy. The Dragonfly doesn't seem to perform very well neither with low impedance, sensitive IEM's, nor with anything above HD650 (maybe HD700 reported by someone). I assume then that the "comfort zone" would then be indeed Grado, Ultrasone and probably other reasonably efficient headphones (the HD5XX range from Sennheiser comes to mind as well). A lot of love for the Ultrasone / Dragonfly combo reported so far, how about experiences with other headphones, including Grado?   

 

[BobJS]

Quote:

Hey you guys,
I just received my DF this noon...
hearing it for 2 hours now, it sounds WAY better than my Fiio E17 "Alpen" (soon to go to the "for sale" section )
 
BTW 
when i finished my listening session, i unpluged it, and it was very hot.
is it normal for it to get hot ?
 
1 min outside, it cooled back to room temperature.. 
 
 
-Eyal

 
Quote:

I have the E17 and am considering getting the DF.  Can you determine if it's the DAC or amp (or both) that is the better performer?

 
Quote:

BobJS:
yes,
the DAC is better, and the amp. is better
 
BUT
the volume you can reach is lower than with the E17's.
 
 
-Eyal

 
OK.... even though I really love my E17, based on this and other reviews I've read, I ordered the DF.  Should be here Friday!

 

[orb2k]

Quote:

yup, the hrt headstreamer, see my blog for review

 
Interesting, might need to do some more research

 

[bobeau]

Quote:

 
1) in what way it improves the sound of a Macbook Pro output; some users have suggested resolution and clarity, others a warm signature, a third thought the bass was a bit too much and uncontrolled at some point. These statements are slightly contradicting and while I know that each of us hears things differently, a consensus can generally be reached regarding the overall sound signature of a product. 

 
Not really.  Again, if the output impedance does indeed measure at 4.6 ohms as Chefano measured, then it's going to be suboptimal for low impedance cans (why this is important: http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/discuss/feedback/newsletter/2011/12/2/0-ohm-headphone-amplifier-sonic-advantages-low-impedance-headphone-amp).  Although this is somewhat variable as different headphones respond differently to different loads, voldemort made a case to shoot for a damping factor of 8:1 or better, which would imply using cans at least 37 ohms.  My Macbook Air measures sub 1 ohm.  Also of concern as you allude to is current and voltage swing which are going to limit the driving power.  My Thunderpants for instance sound a bit lean with this compared to my O2 amp, but much better than my MBA's headphone out.
 
My attitude about the DF vs. the headphone output of my MBA for the Ed8s is it does warm these up a bit.  Bass definitely more presence, the whole sound has more fleshed out/timber is improved, but transients are slightly smeared.   Overall I think it's nice improvement over the MBA out, which for my personal preferences can't quite say the same for my EPH-100s.  But adding the O2 to the mix these do sound that next level better - tighter, more dynamic.  It's unfortunate I don't have more cans to try out.
 

 
2) I would like to know how it compares to other similar device. I have had quite a few of these dinky things (Total Bithead, Corda 2 Move, iBasso D10, iQube to name just a few) and always ended up badly disappointed. It is my belief, based on my own experience, that a 5V, USB powered device, can not provide a decent sound. A bit more power to drive an inefficient headphone, yes. But a quality, balanced, natural sound, no. Which is why I ended up with the Hifiman, a product in a completely different league compared to the USB powered generation although not without flaws.
 
Last but not least, to contribute constructively to this thread, I would expect a short tail like this one to be the ideal partner for a Dragonfly. It would keep the stick away from the heat of a computer while relieving the tension on the plugs/sockets.   
 

 
The Dragon Tail people have been referring to is Audioquest's upcoming version of this.  If you're not a big believer in cables (I'm not in particular) then that should be sufficient.
 
Personally, I don't think you'd be happy with the device if your target is the HM801, esp. if you're using it just to drive the Ultrasones through the headphone out.  The DAC implementation is great though, and if you used something like a DF -> 02/C421 it would probably punch at a similar level to the HM801 at about half the cost. 
 
EDIT:  Steve Silberman from Audioquest has mentioned there will be other products in this vein released over the next year, esp. a device like this with a built in battery - the idea being that it may have a bit more driving power not being solely reliant on the limitations of the usb bus.  That might be the one to watch for.

 

[Chefano]

MEA CULPA! (MY FAULT)
 
Hello guys.
I have to apologize for my measurment regarding the DF impedance output, yes I was wrong 

.
I've been reading a lot over the past days and today I discovered that my methodology was not 100% correct. Gonna explain. I was measuring the open circuit at its maximum Rms voltage and then loading it using a selected resistence. Here lies the problem, this works for amplifiers that are designed to be loaded using a specific impedance (lets say 8 Ohms). Heaphone amplifiers are designed to work in a impedance range.. see the problem?
 
So, lets for example use the JH16 pro specs to recalculate the DF output impedance:
Imput sensitivity: 118dB/1mW
Impedance: 18 Ohms
 
Using 110dB (really loud) as my reference @ 1KHz 0dBfs, I would need about 0.4Vrms to drive the JH16pro at 110dB levels. This math is accomplished by: Vrms = Antilog ( ( "how loud" – "imput sensitivity") / 20 )
 
So, I got the DF and adjusted its volume to about 0.404 Vrms in open circuit, and loaded it using a 17.9R, and as result got 0.400 Vrms.
Here is the math:
 
Zsource = Rload x ((Vo/Vl)-1)
Using the values I got  0.18 Ohms
 
Yes, thats correct 0.18 Ohms !
 
I repeated the same process for all the amps I had laying around, and Ive got almost the same measurement as stated in the specs.
 
So, if it not sounds good using high-sens. iems/ low impedance, it must be for another reason than output impedance.

 

[bobeau]

Quote:

 
So, if it not sounds good using high-sens. iems/ low impedance, it must be for another reason than output impedance.

 
Dude, that's awesome, thanks so much for that. 

 Good to hear this is not the reason.  I guess it could just be a signature mismatch that hopefully is cleared up with extended burn-in... the leanness I'm experiencing with my TP1s is perhaps due to those being somewhat under-driven.
 
I'm going to just exclusively listen to my EPH-100s (and all other cans/iems that are incoming) with the DF over the next month or so then re-evaluate then and keep my mouth shut in the meantime.  Mea culpa x 2.

 

[tzjin]

Glad to hear!

If it may be a sound signature mismatch, perhaps we should try a really bright IEM like the DBA-02 with the Dragonfly.

 

[bobeau]

Quote:

Glad to hear!

If it may be a sound signature mismatch, perhaps we should try a really bright IEM like the DBA-02 with the Dragonfly.

 
I dunno if *really bright* IEMs are necessary, but just more neutral.  The EPH-100 I've been using almost exclusively with this is pretty bass heavy by default so it goes to reason a warm push of any sort can put it in unsavory territory - but again, that could come down to preferences.  I'm eager to see how this guy performs with several things I have incoming - namely the JVC FXD-80, JVC S500, and VSonic GR07 MkII.  The GR07 esp. could be a magical combo as that's a strongly neutral IEM.

 

[BobJS]

Quote:

MEA CULPA! (MY FAULT)
 
Hello guys.
I have to apologize for my measurment regarding the DF impedance output, yes I was wrong 

.
............
 
 
............
Yes, thats correct 0.18 Ohms !
 
I repeated the same process for all the amps I had laying around, and Ive got almost the same measurement as stated in the specs.
 
So, if it not sounds good using high-sens. iems/ low impedance, it must be for another reason than output impedance.

 
Not to belabor the point (when someone says this, you know they're about to belabor the point), but Gordon Rankin (the designer) states the output impedance is not more than .8 ohms over in a similar thread at Computer Audiophile.

 

[revenge]

Quote:

Personally, I don't think you'd be happy with the device if your target is the HM801, esp. if you're using it just to drive the Ultrasones through the headphone out.  The DAC implementation is great though, and if you used something like a DF -> 02/C421 it would probably punch at a similar level to the HM801 at about half the cost. 
 
EDIT:  Steve Silberman from Audioquest has mentioned there will be other products in this vein released over the next year, esp. a device like this with a built in battery - the idea being that it may have a bit more driving power not being solely reliant on the limitations of the usb bus.  That might be the one to watch for.

 
 I already have the Hifiman, I was hoping for a similar USB sound in a smaller package but it doesn't sound like the DF is there yet. Maybe I will wait for the powered version to give it a try. Many thanks for your comments.   

 

[bobeau]

I passed this along to the thread at CA... Gordon's response:
 
 
Brandall,

I appreciate the response but this is still not the correct impedance or method for calculating the output impedance. As I stated above the output impedance is 0.8 ohms max (Prism dScope III) . John Atkinson tested this as well and came up with 0.65 ohms (AP27xx).

While there are methods to test the impedance using a DVM at one frequency, the above method is not correct, nor is your original one for tube amps. So the value you calculated at 0.18 is NOT correct.

Also do note that headphones do not load at the same frequencies anyways. So really folks, best bet is try it and see because this is all about taste and with headphones it's more so than with full systems.

Thanks
Gordon

 

 

[Wavelength]

Chefano,
 
Thanks for looking at this again! But your numbers and methods are still not correct. While you can with an oscillator and a DVM come up with a specific impedance at a given frequency, this is not the way to do it. Also that is not the way to do it with a Tube Amplifier either.
 
But really why??? Everyone knows that headphones and speakers vary with frequency. Impedance is just one variable and really with feedback it can be really low and actually not as controlled or good as one without feedback. There are too many variables to pick out one for something that is so personal like headphones are.
 
Try it... yea and not like others for 10 minutes and send it back. Really try it and let it break in easily don't force it.
 
Ok as I stated before the output Z of the DragonFly is 0.8 ohms max. John Atkinson tested it with the Audio Precision and got 0.65 ohms. I use the Prism dScope III, these will test using FFT and therefore get a broadband spectrum of the overall impedance.
 
Again though that is only one variable.... I think we all know we listen with a lot more than that.
 
Thanks
Gordon

 

[longbowbbs]

Chefano,

Thanks for looking at this again! But your numbers and methods are still not correct. While you can with an oscillator and a DVM come up with a specific impedance at a given frequency, this is not the way to do it. Also that is not the way to do it with a Tube Amplifier either.

But really why??? Everyone knows that headphones and speakers vary with frequency. Impedance is just one variable and really with feedback it can be really low and actually not as controlled or good as one without feedback. There are too many variables to pick out one for something that is so personal like headphones are.

Try it... yea and not like others for 10 minutes and send it back. Really try it and let it break in easily don't force it.

Ok as I stated before the output Z of the DragonFly is 0.8 ohms max. John Atkinson tested it with the Audio Precision and got 0.65 ohms. I use the Prism dScope III, these will test using FFT and therefore get a broadband spectrum of the overall impedance.

Again though that is only one variable.... I think we all know we listen with a lot more than that.

Thanks
Gordon

Gordon, I am really enjoying the DF after a couple of hundred hours of beak in. Considering all the variables of components and how they are assembled, it makes sense to me that even if two devices are measuring the same that they would still have different sound characteristics. Ultimately, since I enjoy the DF and it performs well with my current phones ( Snnheiser HD 650's) I could care less about about it's measurements, just it's performance. They are not necessarily the same in my experience.

I'll let the engineers return to their scopes and I'll return to my lossless AIFF files...

 

[judmarc]

Quote:

Try it... yea and not like others for 10 minutes and send it back. Really try it and let it break in easily don't force it.
 

 
Funny, I have no doubt at all re break in, but have to say I loved the Dragonfly from the first moment I heard it.
 
Using it with my desktop at home as my office system DAC when I am not taking it traveling with my MacBook Pro (with ER-4P IEMs).  In both systems I find it very neutral (no, not analytical).  I can definitely hear the music better than with the MBP's very good phone output or with the excellent ESI Juli@ soundcard in my desktop.
 
Re Windows players, the Dragonfly seems to work perfectly with XXHighEnd, my preferred player on Windows.