AUDIO over IP - REDNET 3 & 16 Review. AES67 Sets A New Standard for Computer Audio

[Iving]

Just a few notes on Optane/PCIe then - please see recent posts inc. Z270-WS block diagram:

- This is an A/B with a confound.
- All PC components (24-pin, 12V CPU, 6-pin PCIe and SATA 5V) powered independently from Larry's new 400W HDPLEX.
- A is o/s W10 Pro on M.2_1 (PCIe NVME) / flac on a SATA SSD.
- B is o/s and flac both on a single Optane AIC in PCIE_1 (no switch/CPU-direct) ...
- In both A and B Intel X540-T2 is also in a no-switch (CPU-direct) PCIE slot.
- The essential difference is Optane vs. Allcomers (M.2/SSD).
- NB: Both M.2 and SATA go thru the chipset. This is the confound - B involves no traffic thru chipset (PCH-H) - it's ostensibly all PCIE/CPU.
- Therefore any difference could be attributable to Optane per se or to an ultra-simple mobo configuration - or both.
- My system is cold and I only had an hour at things after set up.
- There is an unmistakeable elevation of SQ:
- the music breathes
- it is cleaner
- it flows
- it is enjoyable
- voices (Sandy Denny!) have extra layers
- the delivery is relaxed
- the delivery is deliberate
- micro-instances of music that are exquisite tell me that they are so
- even on something like Byrds 'Nashville West'.
- As the system warmed up a bit there is more detail, openness and thud.
- The music is fluid. Johhny Burnette's 'Lonesome Train' is not so much more Lonesome as more - well - Train.
- My "go to" track for digititis evaluation is Emmylou 'Boulder to Birmingham' - her voice sounds more the beautiful voice that it is than an edgey annoyance.

So - I recommend Optane. If you get tempted make sure of PCIe AIC (although you could visit Larry aka lmitche on CA for alternatives). In parallel fashion I recommend avoidance of the chipset and other switches. I can't say which of the two recommendations is sweeter.

Talking of partnerships - me and the RedNet Card didn't work out this time around. Perhaps she'll wait for me. I'm a happy bunny anyway.

 

[Iving]

Here is Focusrite's reply to my support enquiry (see a few posts back) ...

Reminder of enquiry:

Dear Focusrite,
A domestic audiophile, I play music via DVS on a PC direct to a D16 AES. In addition to DVS, I have RedNet Control (/Dante Controller) installed on the PC. Aside from updating firmware/software, I have no need whatsoever to be online. I do not use a switch. The only ethernet connection required during play is between my PC and the D16 AES.
I intend to buy a RedNet PCIeR ethernet card. I will reinstall Windows and will have no need for DVS. I understand that the RedNet PCIeR card is not a network card. I would like to set up an "all other things equal" direct connection between the PCIeR card and the D16 AES with the minimum of fuss.
1. Will I be able to do this with no switch?
2. Will I able to to do this with a direct ethernet connection between the RedNet PCIeR Card and the D16 AES only?
3. If not, will an additional hard connection to the internet from my PC (standard LAN/NIC) suffice?
4. Or will I require another, separate ethernet connection from the D16 AES to any other point on the network?
I ask because I am unclear reading the RedNet Installation Guide etc here https://uk.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-pcie-card/downloads,and because of the shared experience of fellow audiophiles (although they have different systems and so their experience mightn't necessarily apply).
I presume that no matter the setup requirements, I will be able to play music post setup with no ethernet connection except that between the PC and the D16 AES.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Martin
P.S. An utterly secondary question: Does the sample rate follow capacity of the RedNet system depend on the answers to any of the questions 1-4 (supra). Thanks


Reply:
Hi,
Thanks for contacting us.
The advantage of using the Rednet PCIeR Card over DVS is the additional audio channels it provides as well as the better latency performance. Is that what you are trying to accomplish? Any additional information you can provide regarding your intended use of your RedNet system will help give me an idea of what you require.
I believe that a switch is not necessary for the setup you are describing. However, we will need to be connected to your computer's ethernet port in order to communicate with Dante Controller.
I suggest plugging in your D16 to your computer's ethernet port and then using the secondary port to connect it to your PCIeR card.
One thing to keep in mind is that you will need to be sure to install the driver for your PCIeR card when installing RedNet Control. There will be an option to checkmark the PCIeR driver during the installation of Rednet Control, so be sure to follow that step.
After that, you will be able to select the PCIeR card as your audio device in your computer's playback settings, and then configure routing to the D16 in Dante Controller.
Best regards,
Technical Support Engineer

 

[Iving]

deleted

 

[Golfnutz]

Here is Focusrite's reply to my support enquiry (see a few posts back) ...

Reminder of enquiry:

Dear Focusrite,
A domestic audiophile, I play music via DVS on a PC direct to a D16 AES. In addition to DVS, I have RedNet Control (/Dante Controller) installed on the PC. Aside from updating firmware/software, I have no need whatsoever to be online. I do not use a switch. The only ethernet connection required during play is between my PC and the D16 AES.
I intend to buy a RedNet PCIeR ethernet card. I will reinstall Windows and will have no need for DVS. I understand that the RedNet PCIeR card is not a network card. I would like to set up an "all other things equal" direct connection between the PCIeR card and the D16 AES with the minimum of fuss.
1. Will I be able to do this with no switch?
2. Will I able to to do this with a direct ethernet connection between the RedNet PCIeR Card and the D16 AES only?
3. If not, will an additional hard connection to the internet from my PC (standard LAN/NIC) suffice?
4. Or will I require another, separate ethernet connection from the D16 AES to any other point on the network?
I ask because I am unclear reading the RedNet Installation Guide etc here https://uk.focusrite.com/ethernet-audio-interfaces/rednet-pcie-card/downloads,and because of the shared experience of fellow audiophiles (although they have different systems and so their experience mightn't necessarily apply).
I presume that no matter the setup requirements, I will be able to play music post setup with no ethernet connection except that between the PC and the D16 AES.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Martin
P.S. An utterly secondary question: Does the sample rate follow capacity of the RedNet system depend on the answers to any of the questions 1-4 (supra). Thanks


Reply:
Hi,
Thanks for contacting us.
The advantage of using the Rednet PCIeR Card over DVS is the additional audio channels it provides as well as the better latency performance. Is that what you are trying to accomplish? Any additional information you can provide regarding your intended use of your RedNet system will help give me an idea of what you require.
I believe that a switch is not necessary for the setup you are describing. However, we will need to be connected to your computer's ethernet port in order to communicate with Dante Controller.
I suggest plugging in your D16 to your computer's ethernet port and then using the secondary port to connect it to your PCIeR card.
One thing to keep in mind is that you will need to be sure to install the driver for your PCIeR card when installing RedNet Control. There will be an option to checkmark the PCIeR driver during the installation of Rednet Control, so be sure to follow that step.
After that, you will be able to select the PCIeR card as your audio device in your computer's playback settings, and then configure routing to the D16 in Dante Controller.
Best regards,
Technical Support Engineer

One thing I found with Focusrite support is you need to be very specific in telling them you are using your RN in an audio system with only 2 channels, and no DAW software, or recording studio.
I think they probably just glazed over 'domestic audiophile' with a mindset of something bigger happening here because you're asking about the PCIeR card.

 

[motberg]

Just a few notes on Optane/PCIe then - please see recent posts inc. Z270-WS block diagram:

- This is an A/B with a confound.
- All PC components (24-pin, 12V CPU, 6-pin PCIe and SATA 5V) powered independently from Larry's new 400W HDPLEX.
- A is o/s W10 Pro on M.2_1 (PCIe NVME) / flac on a SATA SSD.
- B is o/s and flac both on a single Optane AIC in PCIE_1 (no switch/CPU-direct) ...
- In both A and B Intel X540-T2 is also in a no-switch (CPU-direct) PCIE slot.
- The essential difference is Optane vs. Allcomers (M.2/SSD).
- NB: Both M.2 and SATA go thru the chipset. This is the confound - B involves no traffic thru chipset (PCH-H) - it's ostensibly all PCIE/CPU.
- Therefore any difference could be attributable to Optane per se or to an ultra-simple mobo configuration - or both.
- My system is cold and I only had an hour at things after set up.
- There is an unmistakeable elevation of SQ:
- the music breathes
- it is cleaner
- it flows
- it is enjoyable
- voices (Sandy Denny!) have extra layers
- the delivery is relaxed
- the delivery is deliberate
- micro-instances of music that are exquisite tell me that they are so
- even on something like Byrds 'Nashville West'.
- As the system warmed up a bit there is more detail, openness and thud.
- The music is fluid. Johhny Burnette's 'Lonesome Train' is not such much more Lonesome as more - well - Train.
- My "go to" track for digititis evaluation is Emmylou 'Boulder to Birmingham' - her voice sounds more the beautiful voice that it is than an edgey annoyance.

So - I recommend Optane. If you get tempted make sure of PCIe AIC (although you could visit Larry aka lmitche on CA for alternatives). In parallel fashion I recommend avoidance of the chipset and other switches. I can't say which of the two recommendations is sweeter.

Talking of partnerships - me and the RedNet Card didn't work out this time around. Perhaps she'll wait for me. I'm a happy bunny anyway.

I think it would be very helpful if you could please try with the flac off the optaine card. That would allow a smaller optaine drive and more storage options, if successful....

thanks for the detailed evaluation, i have not seen many repprts on this, but have copied a lot of limtche ideas on my new computer.

 

[astrostar59]

I was thinking. The Rednet units are primarily designed for a DAW situation. So routing digital to a mixing desk I imagine. The function of an AES and SPDIF output from my Rednet 3 (for example) is possibly for monitoring purposes and a bit of an after thought, not mastering tracks as such. So would it be possible for Rednet to make a dedicated unit that extracts the absolute best sound possible as SPDIF output? In other words, design the unit with that end use as the first priority. It may then only need 4 connections and could have the SPDIF circuits more isolated from the rest of the board. Possibly it could also have auto clock tracking as well, maybe a better internal clock. Just a thought to throw out there. It is probably fantasy as the amount of audiophile users on the Rednet products is probably tiny, mores the pity.

I looked at the MicroRendu as an option to compare to the Rednet but I don't want to add another router. Really I just want one box max between my Mac Mini and the DAC, as got totally fed up with my previous USB fixer / decrapifier chain. Any thoughts?

 

[johnjen]

Have you considered the Eitr as a possibility?

It's not quite up to AOIP SQ but depending upon how good is good enough it may fit the bill as "I just want one box max between my Mac Mini and the DAC".
And you can try it at home with a cost of only a 10% return charge (plus shipping) if it doesn't measure up.

Granted it isn't an ethernet to spdif converter but the only other option I know of is SR limited to 96KHz.
This works out well for the Jggy dac, but it's sorta unique in that way.

JJ

 

[flyte3333]

I looked at the MicroRendu as an option to compare to the Rednet but I don't want to add another router.

Hi, why would you need another router? If you have a router near your Mac already, then both your Mac and microRendu would connect to the same router. Apologies if I missed something obvious.

 

[peteAllen]

What AES cable did you settle on?

Thanks!

An MIT oracle ma-x digital aes

 

[peteAllen]

So - I recommend Optane. If you get tempted make sure of PCIe AIC (although you could visit Larry aka lmitche on CA for alternatives). In parallel fashion I recommend avoidance of the chipset and other switches. I can't say which of the two recommendations is sweeter.

Any chance of a photo of the optane and mobo?

 

[astrostar59]

Doing some more research on the subject of Rednet v USB, I found a good review of the PS Audio Ethernet Bridge card, that fits into there DACs. Quote:

Ethernet is a one-way set of data without clock information–just a bunch of packets sent to anything that simply has to put it back in order (re-assemble it). USB, on the other hand, is a two-way communication with timing involved. That timing with USB causes problems for audio streaming that have to be remedied. That is why, when one uses (say) a Mac Mini with USB, various upgrading and peripherals are required to get optimal sound: a high-end separate linear power supply, an expensive short in length USB cable, and superior sounding player software (such as JRiver) for example. The Mac Mini (or any computer) when using USB struggles to access memory allocations, and has to deal with serious timing and jitter issues. More generally, that is why stand-alone high-end USB based music servers are expensive (they can be well over $5000).

But when using ethernet it makes no difference. To send out ethernet data (via a PC or a MAC or a NAS), little expense is required beyond ensuring the device used has enough speed, enough disk space and appropriate sofware: Once the data is sent, it does not matter what device sent it, it will have no eaffect on the quality of the sound at the other end (DAC).

And the quality of the cable is irrelevant too (I am using a $3.00 ethernet cable). As PS Audio CEO Paul McGowan told me via email when I asked him related questions:

Ethernet data can be sent without any change in sound quality around the world or two feet away. That is because the packets haven’t any timing information associated with them. They are just chunks of data that can come slowly or quickly without affect. The data is unremarkable and agnostic as to how it is delivered. And likewise the quality of the cable that carries the data matters not. The same cannot be said for any other type of data transmission. USB, S/PDIF, Coaxial, even TOSLINK are susceptible to sound differences according to the media they travel through.

I am unsure of this part of the statement 'USB is a two way connection with timing information' I was under the impression Asyncronous USB output sends the data without a clock, i.e. the DAC dictates the clocking speed and jitter reduction. The Rednet uses it's own clock (if set that way) and thus is the master, as SPDIF dictates the DAC has to follow.

If PS Audio built another version of the device but in a standalone box, with Ethernet in and i2S out, that could be a game changer I think. That would probably take out the need for a 5K music server right there, kill that market. It would also allow anyone with a Laptop to potentially have a world class music player. Well , that is my little theory for today.

http://www.audiophilia.com/reviews/2016/1/16/ps-audio-perfectwave-network-bridge-ii

 

[astrostar59]

Hi, why would you need another router? If you have a router near your Mac already, then both your Mac and microRendu would connect to the same router. Apologies if I missed something obvious.

I was thinking a router just for the music network, no internet access or other devices, or phone connections. i.e. not add more polluting items to the audio system.

 

[Iving]

I have replied to the Focusrite support response here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/aud...-computer-audio.806827/page-228#post-14094431 as follows:

Thanks [],
We (audiophiles conversing on a forum) have figured out that RedNet Control (RC) needs an ethernet/network view of a RedNet interface (D16 AES, RedNet 3) in order to supervise it. In the case of DVS, RC can see the interface through the same ethernet port that conveys the audio signal; accordingly a single ethernet cable between PC and interface is sufficient - and desirable in audiophile terms for both isolation and listening environment reasons. This is untrue of PCIe(R) where the audio signal is transmitted with super-low latency but RC cannot see/supervise the interface without an additional ethernet channel (switch or possibly direct). It is possible to initialise after starting up the equipment via such a channel, disconnect and continue to enjoy music through the remaining PCIe(R) - interface route, but RC is then blind and that can have repercussions*. The disconnection process is also a manual inconvenience. Accordingly I have put on hold my purchase.
*If you can feedback to the relevant (software) technicians, we would like that an (external) WC setting in RC remains permanent unless changed so that we do not have to start RC/adjust to the preferred setting every time we start the computer.
You didn't answer the question about SR follow, but we can do some educated guessing!

 

[Iving]

I think it would be very helpful if you could please try with the flac off the optaine card. That would allow a smaller optaine drive and more storage options, if successful....

thanks for the detailed evaluation, i have not seen many repprts on this, but have copied a lot of limtche ideas on my new computer.

Sure
I had disabled SATA on the mobo leaving everything PCIe/CPU as explained.
For a simple comparison at your request, I enabled SATA and put in fb2k the "same" flac/track (Silver threads and golden needles from Fotheringay 2 - not the one on Youtube) on Optane on the one hand and on the SSD on the other (all LPS).
The Optane instance sounds better. It breathes. It has depth. The SSD instance is thinner - more like a transistor radio. Less subtle. Fewer layers to voice.
Just to be clear - Larry's smaller Optane cards are M.2/chipset hinged.
Thanks for prompting me. I had planned to check this anyway. I can relax now

 

[Iving]

Any chance of a photo of the optane and mobo?

Sure