[Dynobot]

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Dynobot: Some people like a more energetic sound, and some like a warmer, more rolled-off sound when listening to music.  No big deal.

わかた。

 

[dukja]

I just got relied from Kingwa.  The DSP chips in Ref-1 and 7 can be exchanged without problem.  So I will be able to AB test Ref-1 with V3 and V5 DSP and the same for my new Ref-7 DAC.
 
And apparently the new orders of Ref-7 has been up a lot.  Audio-gd are running out of parts.  (I don't have details)  Glad to see Ref-7 being received so well, but hate to wait extra days to get it.

 

[regal]

The weakness of the top of the line Audio-gd products vs the expensive western stuff is the filter algorithm programming,  hopefully the v5 DSP takes care of that
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So, I have not heard any audio GD gear. What influenced my decision was the specs, the build quality, and the price all of this was offered at. To get a Western equivalent (in design and quality) of this DAC you are looking at 10K+
  

 

[sokolov91]

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The weakness of the top of the line Audio-gd products vs the expensive western stuff is the filter algorithm programming,  hopefully the v5 DSP takes care of that

I sincerely hope so! But considering they are on their 5th version, and the DSP changes and shipping back and forth is not cheap (not to mention customers not being able to use their units unless they have two) would mean the upgrades are substantial and if the 5th does do it, there will be another.

 

[DaveBSC]

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Why would it cost 10k? Simple. The components used the Ref 7 are of the highest quality, and there are a ton of them, all in a full sized case. When was the last time you say a Western company offer anything close to this at this price point? I`ll tell you: There was no last time because it never happened. This price point, for this level of quality in components is simply unheard of.

I think it's definitely true that to get to the level of the Ref 7's power supply and analog output stages in an Esoteric or whatever, you do need to spend that kind of cash. The question I've been wondering lately is though, how is it that DACs like the Berkeley or the new Weiss, with S-D chips, simple power supplies, and op-amp output stages, sound so good? Is it really the power supply and the output stage that makes a DAC, or is it the digital, incoming end?

 

[IPodPJ]

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Not trying to argue but in my experience, the best for the least is found in the used market. A used BAT VK-5D or Lector CDP 7T can be had for below the price of a Ref 7 and they are both far more involving IMO. I just wasn't impressed with the Ref 7 at all. I preferred an older Theta Gen Va when I heard the two side by side. A western equivalent in design and quality would cost $10k?? Why do you think this? Perhaps there is something you know that I don't but can you tell me how bit depth is related to how a unit will sound? Again, not trying to argue, just interested in seeing your perspective and perhaps learn something new. There must be some place you can go out and audition some equipment. Maybe you can't afford what you audition but at least you can find a house sound that you like. I'm getting tired of how people state R2R is the "best" chip out there and mislead others into thinking they have to have an R2R chip based dac. IMO there is no "best" chip, it all depends on the implementation. On another note, Audio gd uses the Burr Brown PCM 1704 UK in the Ref 7 and I have never liked a dac that uses this or any version of this chip. I didn't like it in the Levinson 36 and I didn't like it in the audio gd Ref 7. I'm not the only one that doesn't care for the sound of the Ref 7. Take a look at the Ref 7 loaner thread in the high end sub forum. 

Well that's great.  You've expressed your dislike of the DAC several times now.  If you don't like the PCM1704UK based DACs, that's fine and dandy but there are thousands of audiophiles who do.  With regards to the Ref-7, obviously it is a good DAC because there are tons of people who own it and think very highly of it.  Your opinion isn't any less valid, but neither does it makes the tons of people who like it crazy.

 

[regal]

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Well that's great.  You've expressed your dislike of the DAC several times now.  If you don't like the PCM1704UK based DACs, that's fine and dandy but there are thousands of audiophiles who do.  With regards to the Ref-7, obviously it is a good DAC because there are tons of people who own it and think very highly of it.  Your opinion isn't any less valid, but neither does it makes the tons of people who like it crazy.

He is probably coming from the perspective when the PCM1704 replaced the PCM63K in those high end components and at the time the PCM1704 was a definate downgrade in SQ.  Kingwa does an excellent job in dealing with the PCM1704 deficiencies/quirks and levels the playing field.    But there are times I'm tempted to try a set of PCM63K's with Kingwas analog stage,  bet it would be smokin.  



 
Quote:

I think it's definitely true that to get to the level of the Ref 7's power supply and analog output stages in an Esoteric or whatever, you do need to spend that kind of cash. The question I've been wondering lately is though, how is it that DACs like the Berkeley or the new Weiss, with S-D chips, simple power supplies, and op-amp output stages, sound so good? Is it really the power supply and the output stage that makes a DAC, or is it the digital, incoming end?

Think of it another way,  A reference 7 with a Berkley programed DSP,  bet that would be one hell of a combo.
 

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Think of it another way,  A reference 7 with a Berkley programed DSP,  bet that would be one hell of a combo.
 

Perhaps it would, it just seems odd though. The Alpha DAC uses an AD chip (not sure which) and op-amps. Conventional wisdom would suggest that a DAC with huge transformers, loads of regulators, and fully discrete output stages should destroy it, but I've seen impressions from people that prefer the Berkeley to the Theta Gen VIII S2, which packs all that stuff, and I have to assume Theta's DSP is a good one. The Gen VIII also costs nearly 3X as much. The Alpha DAC just seems to belie the thinking that it's the analog section that makes the DAC. Berkeley said going whole hog on the analog section wasn't necessary, but maybe they just wanted to hit a certain price point, and a fully tricked out Alpha (with a Gen VIII price tag) would be that much better. Who knows.
 
On a side note, I wonder what Kingwa would make of the GTE Trinity, which is the most insane implementation I've ever seen of a PCM1704 based DAC. It's a three chassis design with an AKM 4112B receiver, three different user selectable filters for standard res inputs, and no filter for high-res. It uses sixteen 1704 DACs per channel. According to TAS, "each DAC is driven by an input signal that has been delayed slightly in relation to the preceding DAC. The DAC outputs are all switched together, resulting in an analog output waveform in which the classic stair-step structure is much finer, smoother, and closer in shape to the original sine wave. In fact, the waveform is so smooth that the Trinity DAC allows you to bypass the digital filter entirely when playing high-resolution sources." Oh yeah, it costs about $60K.
 

 

 

[regal]

Well I prefer to the Berkley to the RE1 (DSP v2),  but I prefer the AudioGd 3SE (PMD100) to the berkley.  Just so happens the same engineers who programmed the Berkley DSP programmed the PMD100.  It takes a balance of both: strong analog stage and good digital front end.   Of course with the Berkley Alpha the profit margins are huge so why should they invest in another engineer and the subsequent hit to the BOM giving it a strong analog stage,  yes I've heard good reviews of it but a lot of folks aren't happy with it based on impressions I've read,  also quite a few of them for sale on the Audiogon.
 
Really shows to make a good DAC you need a great digital front and a great analog section backing it up,  and IMHO a good R2R in between.

 

[haloxt]

People who think the ref 7 is too boring or not musical enough would probably prefer audio-gd's musical line.
 
On another note, just ordered the dsp1 v5 board for my dac9mk3 so will let you guys know how it sounds vs pmd-100.

 

[newbie79]

Hi all,
 
I've read the entire thread with great interest and just registered to the forum. Great stuff! I'm hoping someone here can help me with the following.
 
I am thinking strongly about buying the REF7 but I'd really like to know how this would match with a computer based system. I've read somewhere that the DAC is not "specifically" made for this. This has something to do with clock and jitter

 Please bear with me, I'm really bad at the technical stuff.
 
What kind of device would I need (if any) to get the most of my computer based system and REF7?
 
Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[regal]

Quote:

Hi all,
 
I've read the entire thread with great interest and just registered to the forum. Great stuff! I'm hoping someone here can help me with the following.
 
I am thinking strongly about buying the REF7 but I'd really like to know how this would match with a computer based system. I've read somewhere that the DAC is not "specifically" made for this. This has something to do with clock and jitter

 Please bear with me, I'm really bad at the technical stuff.
 
What kind of device would I need (if any) to get the most of my computer based system and REF7?
 
Thanks in advance for any help!

I believe AudioGd sells a USB-SPDIF converter which you could use to connect to the computer,  check their website.

 

[Dynobot]

I have found that with decreased incoming jitter the Ref5&7 sound more open and exciting with greater detail, esp on the top end. 
 
When I compare toslink coming straight from the computer the sound is very lush and blurred compared to when I use a very short usb cable and the digital interface w/75ohm connector. 
 
Further testing my theory I tested two computers one with [IBM's low latency optimizations to reduce operating system jitter]combined with [Linux alsa's optimizations to reduce audio processing latency and jitter] vs. a standard install of Linux. 
 
There was a dramatic difference in sound, the optimized Linux machine had a crystal clarity without any sign of sibilance, the highs went higher with greater delicacy and texture and the lows reached much deeper, there was only a hint of the characteristic lushness associated with AGD gear in the lower midrange. 
 
Conversely the standard install even while using the digital interface still sounded very lush and did not have nearly the extension or detail in the higher octaves and the low end did not have the punch and authority but was slightly rolled off as well.  I would recommend concentrating efforts on the digital source vs. anything else.

 

[les_garten]

I'm running mine(REF1) straight out of my Computer and it is spectacular.
 
You can search for my posts in the REF1 thread to see how I did it and why it is so clean via BNC.
 
Quote:

Hi all,
 
I've read the entire thread with great interest and just registered to the forum. Great stuff! I'm hoping someone here can help me with the following.
 
I am thinking strongly about buying the REF7 but I'd really like to know how this would match with a computer based system. I've read somewhere that the DAC is not "specifically" made for this. This has something to do with clock and jitter

 Please bear with me, I'm really bad at the technical stuff.
 
What kind of device would I need (if any) to get the most of my computer based system and REF7?
 
Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[punk_guy182]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbie79 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
I am thinking strongly about buying the REF7 but I'd really like to know how this would match with a computer based system. I've read somewhere that the DAC is not "specifically" made for this. This has something to do with clock and jitter

 Please bear with me, I'm really bad at the technical stuff.
 
What kind of device would I need (if any) to get the most of my computer based system and REF7?

If you want to use your RE7 or pretty much any DAC with your computer then I strongly recommend that you get the Audio-GD Digital Interface. http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USBface/Digital1EN.htm
If you only play music via a computer like I do then I would get Version B witout the external PSU. Also, I would ask Kingwa to make an RE7 with one single input to reduce the price tag of the RE7.
 
RE7 does reclock the signal whether it comes from the computer or a cd player. Adding the DI in the chain between the 2 components just helps to acheive a sound with even less jitter.