Audio-GD Reference 7 - the new flagship DAC

Feb 17, 2011 at 5:01 PM Post #2,056 of 2,738


Quote:
If I remember correctly Kingwa said once that in his experience AES measures worse than BNC, which is why he doesn´t feel it´s very important. And yes, I know some manufactures say the exact opposite. Who knows...


Sean Adams, the designer of the Transporter also says the same thing about his product -- that the BNC input on the Transporter performs better than the AES input.  I guess it comes down to taste, cables, wire, etc.  At one point I felt that BNC performed better but once I got the Ref7 and tried a few AES cabes, my opinion changed.  I also am using OCC silver wire for the AES input in the Ref7 which I'm not using on any of the other inputs.  I feel that there is less difference between cables though on AES than there is with BNC.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 6:18 PM Post #2,057 of 2,738


Quote:
At one point I felt that BNC performed better but once I got the Ref7 and tried a few AES cabes, my opinion changed.


My Transporter is pretty much stock, not hot-rodded like yours, but I've always noticed a wider image when using AES/EBU out of the unit, no matter what DAC it's been plugged into. It's most curious why that should be.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 6:38 PM Post #2,058 of 2,738

 
Quote:
Sean Adams, the designer of the Transporter also says the same thing about his product -- that the BNC input on the Transporter performs better than the AES input.  I guess it comes down to taste, cables, wire, etc.  At one point I felt that BNC performed better but once I got the Ref7 and tried a few AES cables, my opinion changed.  I also am using OCC silver wire for the AES input in the Ref7 which I'm not using on any of the other inputs.  I feel that there is less difference between cables though on AES than there is with BNC.


The problem with AES is the simple fact that digital transmission if not in the I2S domain from transport (internally and externally) to dac (internally wired for direct I2S to DSP) the standard method of digital routing, is, in itself, inherently single ended. The additional tech, parts etc needed to convert that SE'd signal to balanced is a very tricky beast to pull off and not degrade the result vs going the BNC/I2S route. Add into that mix, and it's something that a lot of audio folks continue to ignore, is the fact that there is not a single XLR connector made that measures reliably at 110 ohms...it is the same problem with SPDIF RCA jacks (not measuring at 75 ohms once mated to the cable) but without the additional circuitry needed to convert the signal to balanced. BNC is the only method I know of (besides I2S which has no unified standard of employ unfortunately) that is easy enough to implement that remains closest to the spec......We've had this discussion before but it's nice to see Mr Adams admit the truth for a change.... a lot of manufacturers continue to insist that AES is still the best method despite engineering issues that cannot be solved or explained away with baffle-gab. In a perfect world I would love to see I2S used exclusively followed by BNC...forget RCA/AES based connections altogether. Expense and ease of integration has played a major part in what is offered most readily...the ultra high end should consider or revisit BNC/I2S IMO.
 
It would be fun indeed Phil if we could compare the hot rodded Transporter against my soon to be hot rodded CD7 in person, too bad we are so far apart and in different countries. Yes folks (who care) I finally have the parts for the CD7 MAX mod (minus the 27Mhz .05ppm clock can)....if you know where I can source one from please let me know.
 
Peete.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 9:08 PM Post #2,059 of 2,738
There you go iPodJack, call Pete out too.....LOL.
 
And while you are at it, put your Transport up against his CD-TRansport and see what happens.  No matter how many mods you try with the Logitech device it still needs the software/firmware on a computer to send it the data.  Its not until recently that Logitech started using Linux that the S-Box finally took a step up.  If I recall each version of SqueezeCenter sounds different and none are on par with top notch computer software like PureMusic, XXHighEnd, Cplay et.al.  Sure your Transporter is nice, being all tricked out...but no matter what you do to a Volkswagen Rabbit its still not a Porsche.  Do yourself a favor and forgo the Ref7.1 and get yourself a decent front end.
 
Kingwa himself said its not a major leap between the Ref7 and 7.1, a new front-end will make a major difference.  Of if you must keep your transporter maybe you can pay Pete to give your Ref7 a decent upgrade instead of the minor upgrade AGD did to make the 7.1.  The Ref7.1 is still not on par with the mods Pete is doing.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 9:35 PM Post #2,060 of 2,738
The CD7 is the way to go.
 
This is why AGD should make every effort to build a Digital Interface that will enable [other] front ends to be as close to the performance of the CD7 as possible.  AGD Dacs are best being driven by the highest quality front end as possible, this pays big dividends.  Feeding the Dac pure IS2 would be ideal.
 
Feb 17, 2011 at 10:21 PM Post #2,061 of 2,738


Quote:
The problem with AES is the simple fact that digital transmission if not in the I2S domain from transport (internally and externally) to dac (internally wired for direct I2S to DSP) the standard method of digital routing, is, in itself, inherently single ended. The additional tech, parts etc needed to convert that SE'd signal to balanced is a very tricky beast to pull off and not degrade the result vs going the BNC/I2S route. Add into that mix, and it's something that a lot of audio folks continue to ignore, is the fact that there is not a single XLR connector made that measures reliably at 110 ohms...it is the same problem with SPDIF RCA jacks (not measuring at 75 ohms once mated to the cable) but without the additional circuitry needed to convert the signal to balanced. BNC is the only method I know of (besides I2S which has no unified standard of employ unfortunately) that is easy enough to implement that remains closest to the spec......We've had this discussion before but it's nice to see Mr Adams admit the truth for a change.... a lot of manufacturers continue to insist that AES is still the best method despite engineering issues that cannot be solved or explained away with baffle-gab. In a perfect world I would love to see I2S used exclusively followed by BNC...forget RCA/AES based connections altogether. Expense and ease of integration has played a major part in what is offered most readily...the ultra high end should consider or revisit BNC/I2S IMO.
 
It would be fun indeed Phil if we could compare the hot rodded Transporter against my soon to be hot rodded CD7 in person, too bad we are so far apart and in different countries. Yes folks (who care) I finally have the parts for the CD7 MAX mod (minus the 27Mhz .05ppm clock can)....if you know where I can source one from please let me know.
 
Peete.


Sean Adams conceded that a long time ago on the SB forums, but I only recently signed up so wasn't aware of that fact.  However it still doesn't change my opinion of how it performs in my system.  But you're certainly right about the XLR plugs not being 110 ohm, and maybe someone someday will be able to make one.
 
Yeah, it would be a lot of fun if we could compare the two (or even just hang out and shoot the s***).  I'd love to see how they stack up against each other.  Some mods I find beneficial, and others I just feel will change the tonality of the unit which is really not what I'm trying to achieve.  A source/transport is one of those things though where you really never know until you do it, since it is only providing the digital signal to the DAC.  But upgrades to clock and power supply are the single best things you can do for a transport.  It also seems to be more sensitive to power cords/receptacles than any other piece of gear in the chain.
 
Most interconnect or power cord swaps will yield relatively small improvements/differences, and some will argue that it's all placebo which I am certainly not ruling out.  The brain is a strange and mysterious thing.  However there was one swap I did before I modded the Transporter and it was so ridiculously noticeable even I couldn't believe it.  I keep my best power cord on my Transporter, the VD Master LE 2.0 which is where it truly belongs.  I felt it sounded best plugged directly into the wall instead of my Power Plant Premier.
 
Then I upgraded my wall receptacle to a PS Audio Power Port Premier from a stock one.  The sound coming out of my system at that point was so harsh in the treble it was literally hurting my ears, so this was nothing that could be classified as placebo since it was physically hurting me.  I had to plug my cord into the PPP from that point on, which not only fixed that issue but showed that the new receptacle made an improvement over the stock one.
 
I'm not sure why transports are as sensitive as they are to changes in power related parts, but it's something I've noticed on any transport I've ever tried.  Since modding the Transporter though, there are no such issues any more and changing power cords is much less noticeable.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 4:29 AM Post #2,062 of 2,738
I think we're getting too serious here!!
Do we really need to split hairs over a minimal change in sound? Dynobot may be right, probably the CD7 sounds better than any other pc-based transport, but for many of us spinning disc is so inconvenient.
I'd need a room only to store my 1800 CDs, and I would end up listening only to the same CDs, the ones I have easy access to.
With a hard-drive based transport I listen to more music, and I really don't care if it doesn't sound as good as my old CD player.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:08 AM Post #2,063 of 2,738
I thought moderators were supposed to notify you by PM when they remove your post.  I wasn't notified.
 
Anyway, CD is a dying format.  Every month online music sales rise more and more and CD sales drop further and further.  Many artists won't even have CDs pressed anymore and are selling 16/44.1 or higher-res audio through their websites.  Profit is greater for them and usability is easier for us.  I only buy a CD when I can't get the music online, and even then I'll buy the CD used for a few bucks.  The moment I get it it goes right into my computer, ripped with EAC and put back in its case never to be opened again.  The future of music playback is in media servers/streamers.  I would never go backwards.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:19 AM Post #2,064 of 2,738


Quote:
If I recall each version of SqueezeCenter sounds different


Do your homework.  The developers over on the SB forums have said countless times that nothing new has been coded which will change the sound quality in any way for years now, and that was only in the firmware, NOT the SqueezeServer software.  I felt that on the last firmware upgrade there was a difference, but it wasn't related to that since the developers once again said nothing in the Xilinx DSP code had changed.  What had likely caused what I was hearing was a factory setting returning to default when the firmware was upgraded.  The setting was: determines how a PCM file is processed when supplied in WAV format - then stream -> either WAV of FLAC, whereas this would effect memory allocation.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 7:28 AM Post #2,065 of 2,738
Audio-gd just announced a new high end line of products, the MASTER series. So far a new preamp and power amp, but maybe we´ll see a MASTER series transport or DAC someday too :) Interesting little fact: the new MASTER series products use the Nucleotide OCC copper wire by default.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 9:30 AM Post #2,067 of 2,738


Quote:
Audio-gd just announced a new high end line of products, the MASTER series. So far a new preamp and power amp, but maybe we´ll see a MASTER series transport or DAC someday too :) Interesting little fact: the new MASTER series products use the Nucleotide OCC copper wire by default.


It's not a new line, the C-1 Master power amp has been out for at least a year now.
 
Notice how the preamp and amp now use 4-pin XLR for the ACSS connections.  I suggested this to Audio-gd ages ago.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 10:28 AM Post #2,068 of 2,738

 
Quote:
Sean Adams conceded that a long time ago on the SB forums, but I only recently signed up so wasn't aware of that fact.  However it still doesn't change my opinion of how it performs in my system.  But you're certainly right about the XLR plugs not being 110 ohm, and maybe someone someday will be able to make one.
 
Yeah, it would be a lot of fun if we could compare the two (or even just hang out and shoot the s***).  I'd love to see how they stack up against each other.  Some mods I find beneficial, and others I just feel will change the tonality of the unit which is really not what I'm trying to achieve.  A source/transport is one of those things though where you really never know until you do it, since it is only providing the digital signal to the DAC.  But upgrades to clock and power supply are the single best things you can do for a transport.  It also seems to be more sensitive to power cords/receptacles than any other piece of gear in the chain.
 
Most interconnect or power cord swaps will yield relatively small improvements/differences, and some will argue that it's all placebo which I am certainly not ruling out.  The brain is a strange and mysterious thing.  However there was one swap I did before I modded the Transporter and it was so ridiculously noticeable even I couldn't believe it.  I keep my best power cord on my Transporter, the VD Master LE 2.0 which is where it truly belongs.  I felt it sounded best plugged directly into the wall instead of my Power Plant Premier.
 
Then I upgraded my wall receptacle to a PS Audio Power Port Premier from a stock one.  The sound coming out of my system at that point was so harsh in the treble it was literally hurting my ears, so this was nothing that could be classified as placebo since it was physically hurting me.  I had to plug my cord into the PPP from that point on, which not only fixed that issue but showed that the new receptacle made an improvement over the stock one.
 
I'm not sure why transports are as sensitive as they are to changes in power related parts, but it's something I've noticed on any transport I've ever tried.  Since modding the Transporter though, there are no such issues any more and changing power cords is much less noticeable.



 I had also forgot to mention that building a balanced digital cable is another major hurdle vs the single conductor 75 ohm COAX. The geometry of the balanced (usually a twisted pair of conductors for plus minus and the mesh shield used for the GND run) changes the inductance/capacitance parameters vs the 75 ohm coax. IIRC twisted pair (tight & uniform ) will drop inductance but increase capacitance which will likely effect resistance or effect the ability of the cable to remain at 110 ohm......add to that the connection option (solder or cold weld/press fit) of the conductors to the XLR jack pins and the impedance may drift even further from the ideal. Termination of 110 and 75 ohm digital cables is critical (which is why it's one of few the jobs I leave to the pros, if the cable is built from raw materials like the Furutech I have) The other big turn off for me WRT 110 ohm AES is the expense. These cables can quickly get into the ridiculous range (ridiculous for me at least) so can the 75 ohm variants although for the 150 -350 dollar range there is a wide variety of high quality (75 ohm) choices available. I can't think of a single pure silver AES cable under 400 USD for a 1 meter length off hand with many of them starting in my self imposed "ridiculous range" for cables no matter where they are used. The only exception I've made in this regard was for my ref system's speaker cables. The Nordost flat-line series (Blue Heaven II shotgun runs) clearly outperformed my previous cables of choice (AudioQuest Mammoth, MIT MH-750+ Series II, XLO Ultra 6 -10, DIY OFC 12 gage stranded braided similar to recipe of CAT 5 DIY,  J Risch DIY Belden 89259 cross connect) so that is what I've run with for a few years now. I'm sure there are better cables than the the BH II's but for me I'd rather sink the $$$ into other areas (like parts for mods or higher quality DIY IC's than my current mix of MIT IC's, which are mighty fine performers in their own right). Going to solid silver cabling in my system would be very very expensive even if I DIY every single cable. Likely looking at 3-5K if a I switch from single ended to balanced to the various amps, room correction processor and xover. I'm lucky that all of my current amps can accept XLR...the main impediment to going that route is finding a high quality analog xover that has balanced and single ended I/O. So far the only xover that I know of worthy of consideration is a custom built Marchand unit which is very expensive.All of the Pro gear boxes I've looked at leave a lot to be desired, the ones that do look promising convert the signal to the digital domain, something which I have zero interest in. The DBX units operate in the digital domain ...it's too bad since they have some powerful and very useful features an analog xover cannot touch. Being a purist however I can't except the additional ADC/DAC step in the most crucial stage of the system chain (outside of source quality), the stage between the preamp and the amps/processor and xover. The room processor operates in the digital domain (ADC/DAC step) but it only effects the sub channels from 60 hz on down, it doesn't touch the rest of the freq range. The PARC processor is reportedly of high enough quality for my purposes but we run into that price range at or above what the Marchand would cost. Sigh...Does anyone know of an active balanced analog xover DIY design I could look at ?
 
 Anyway there is no disputing the fact that a server based source is far more convenient with leaps in performance progressing at a steady rate. I certainly hope that in the future we can finally have a definitive server source that is a clear cut above traditional spinners, until that happens I will remain with the stand alone transport as my reference.There is one drawback to having so much variety of music at your fingertips I've discovered (it may not effect others)....I find myself skipping songs, skipping entire albums...it's like a compulsion of sorts ( a negative one). For me though it interrupts the flow of or the intended purpose of the recording as a whole as the artists intended (or as the artist has conceived the sequence of the work). In that sense having the physical disc in the transport relieves me of the urge to skip a song or listen to a song out if sequence partly because I'm lazy but for the most part having to change means getting another disc off the shelf so in a way I'm passively forced to listen to entire discs. It's like listening to The Wall with shuffle on...it's not the same experience. Also having the monitor in front of your face close at hand to the keyboard/mouse does not allow one (or me at least) to fully concentrate on the music, sounds a bit silly I know but for some reason I'm easily distracted by the computer and will fidget/surf/read what have you. I suppose it's the reason why I'm satisfied with the FUN/C-2C combo when on the computer. It's funny how variety , ease of operation can combine to be a negative (in my case)...maybe the younger generation have an advantage here as my habits center around hard copies (vinyl/CD/tape) for years before computers even came into existence, let alone used as serious front ends to a high resolution music system.
 
Isn't it interesting how much swapping out an outlet (and running dedicated lines in my case) can influence the overall sound quality of your gear. I went with cryo'd ACME 20 amp duplex x 2 in conjunction with 10-3 Romex and Siemens heavy duty 20 amp breakers (for use with a 15 amp gear. I wanted to have extra headroom in the lines as far as wattage rating and current rating, I did not want to max the capacity but rather run the circuit in a comfortable range of roughly 70% load of capacity rather than 95% on 15 amp circuits. I also run my power amps directly from the wall outlets but all the low power stuff is behind a line conditioner (analog separated from digital gear). I hope to have a PPP unit within the next year or 2 depending on how quickly I can save up the money for one...I may get a used unit if I can.
 
Having a direct comparison would be a hoot PJ......maybe someday we'll have our gear at a CanJam. I know for certain you would love the MAX mod results, the gear really is another animal entirely compared to stock (none of the changes are negative either all 100% positive steps in the right direction). All of the drawbacks noted by other members WRT stock REF series are addressed (and then some) with the MAX mods (which roll up all of the other mods previously performed for brevity's sake ).
 
I realize I need to get myself a V5 DSP for the RE1 but I simply cannot afford to do so for now ( until the Marshall half stack and the Gibby Les Paul Custom are sold I'm stuck in neutral ).
 
Sorry for the semi OT slightly relevant post admins/fellow members ....
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 11:43 AM Post #2,069 of 2,738
 
Quote:
IPodPJ said:
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It's not a new line, the C-1 Master power amp has been out for at least a year now.
 
Notice how the preamp and amp now use 4-pin XLR for the ACSS connections.  I suggested this to Audio-gd ages ago.

 
True, but there hasn´t been much of a marketing push for it. Now it looks like there will be a whole specially promoted MASTER series lineup, which has better stock cable, more burn-in, built only by the most experienced staff etc. A pretty major thing still, even if not really new. The 4-pin XLR is fantastic, the question is will it be adopted in all Audio-gd gear eventually. The poor ACSS sockets and connectors were my main issue with Audio-gd gear. There might not be enough room for the Neutrik 4-pin socket in the smaller models, but I wonder if the larger DACs can already be ordered with the new 4-pin ACSS socket.
 
Feb 18, 2011 at 5:56 PM Post #2,070 of 2,738
 
 
Having owned a S-box and still having it as well as using every piece of audio software available on every operating system I have more experience than 99% of the people hear to form a subjective opinion about the sound characteristics of software vs. a CD-Transport.  
 
Honestly I have never heard the Logitech Transporter Software but I doubt very seriously if they re-invented the wheel for a one off product.  And even IF they did, its still software, and being software it has every inherent flaw that all software has [the computer its on, and every aspect of how it interacts with the computer while processing data].  Computers are flawed for audio unless you take measures to correct the faults, only Cics has done this with Windows, Mac is pretty much a closed OS [only renice and hog-mode to help audio] and then their is Linux which gives ultimate control.
 
iPod, if you really want to get the best out of your computer software use Linux and dig into the OS to have it handle S-Center with real-time priority, and fine tune the way it uses the CPU to process the audio data.  Thats my recommendation.  Otherwise I still say if you want the top fidelity use a CD-Transport, keep your Ref7 and have it modded like Pete did his.
 
 

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