[jodgey4]

Kingwa states that the 29 SE should sound nearly exactly the same as the 28 balanced. Only get the 28 if you need balanced connections. Power output is the same.

Also, the NFB-3 is his cheapest dedicated ES9018 DAC. I'd look into that.

 

[PacoTaco]

I'm not really a believer in balanced plugs, and the NFB 29 is cheaper also, & perhaps newer.

But I'm still considering getting a NFB 11 because its more portable and is $300 cheaper. But I've heard even from the owner that this one is still one step below the GD Compass in terms of sound quality... thinking that just maybe the new 2015 version of the 11 will have better hardware. But I may be just primarily using this unit as a DAC for a tube amp. So do you really think the $300 price difference is justified here?

 
Balanced does make a difference (though marginal on average,) but it's largely down to the headphone more than anything. The Vibro and (apparently) the LCD 2 have a noticeable improvement on a balanced connection. The Blackwood and most dynamic cans have a marginal to almost no improvement.
 
The improvement is there, but, much like a large majority of this hobby or the differences between a 4-core i5 and a 4-core i7, it's minimal at best in most situations and you may as well stick with the standard. A lot of T50 mods, for example, do well with balance connections, but something like the T1, HD800, LCD 3, ect doesn't really benefit much.
 
Balanced vs. Single-ended is probably the only situation where the cable makes  a difference, and that's only because the cable needs the balanced termination and (sometimes) wiring while the SE doesn't.

 

[i019791]

   
Balanced does make a difference (though marginal on average,) but it's largely down to the headphone more than anything. The Vibro and (apparently) the LCD 2 have a noticeable improvement on a balanced connection. The Blackwood and most dynamic cans have a marginal to almost no improvement.
 
The improvement is there, but, much like a large majority of this hobby or the differences between a 4-core i5 and a 4-core i7, it's minimal at best in most situations and you may as well stick with the standard. A lot of T50 mods, for example, do well with balance connections, but something like the T1, HD800, LCD 3, ect doesn't really benefit much.
 
Balanced vs. Single-ended is probably the only situation where the cable makes  a difference, and that's only because the cable needs the balanced termination and (sometimes) wiring while the SE doesn't. 

Interesting, a post where I happen to disagree with all contained statements.
Obviously an SE amp may be much better than a balanced amp. It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE. Since the balanced output normally offers more power, it has a big advantage in cases where the SE output provides insufficient power to a can. 

 

[elwappo99]

 

   
Balanced does make a difference (though marginal on average,) but it's largely down to the headphone more than anything. The Vibro and (apparently) the LCD 2 have a noticeable improvement on a balanced connection. The Blackwood and most dynamic cans have a marginal to almost no improvement.
 
The improvement is there, but, much like a large majority of this hobby or the differences between a 4-core i5 and a 4-core i7, it's minimal at best in most situations and you may as well stick with the standard. A lot of T50 mods, for example, do well with balance connections, but something like the T1, HD800, LCD 3, ect doesn't really benefit much.
 
Balanced vs. Single-ended is probably the only situation where the cable makes  a difference, and that's only because the cable needs the balanced termination and (sometimes) wiring while the SE doesn't. 

Interesting, a post where I happen to disagree with all contained statements.
Obviously an SE amp may be much better than a balanced amp. It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE. Since the balanced output normally offers more power, it has a big advantage in cases where the SE output provides insufficient power to a can. 

 
 
So are you saying a headphone volume matched will have no difference between SE and balanced on the same unit?

 

[Stillhart]

  Interesting, a post where I happen to disagree with all contained statements.
Obviously an SE amp may be much better than a balanced amp. It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE. Since the balanced output normally offers more power, it has a big advantage in cases where the SE output provides insufficient power to a can. 

 
The theory is sound (less power to the SE output on a balanced amp) but the conclusion isn't.  Just because it has less power, doesn't mean that it will be noticeable.  The NFB-28 has 8W per channel into 40ohm.  Halve that and you still have WAY more than most headphones need.  The differences in sound at that point shouldn't be coming from the difference in power output (assuming you're not using an HE-6 or something).

 

[jodgey4]

Well, theoretically, yes - no difference, as the only advantage would be lower induced noise on the short cable run (negligible), and double the slew rate (fast enough already, any improvement should be inaudible). In practice? Who knows. It may not even be exactly the same circuits. I'd love Kingwa to ship me all of his gears so I could test for myself .

 

[i019791]

   
 
So are you saying a headphone volume matched will have no difference between SE and balanced on the same unit?

I wrote: "It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE"
So the answer to your question is negative.

 

[PacoTaco]

  Interesting, a post where I happen to disagree with all contained statements.
Obviously an SE amp may be much better than a balanced amp. It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE. Since the balanced output normally offers more power, it has a big advantage in cases where the SE output provides insufficient power to a can. 

My point wasn't being conveyed very well since I never outright stated it. It's mostly down to engineering. (Note: I'm about to repeat what you said with different wording.) A SE can be better than a balanced rig, and vice-versa. They're both different ways of tackling the same problem. It just happens that one is easier to do correctly (at least from what I understand) but is more expensive, while the other is standard, cheaper, but harder to get to the same results. It's easier to just have the channels split into two separate flows and have it be cleaner with less crosstalk with more power, but costs more for obvious reasons. It's easier for a balanced amp, as its amps only have to power one driver at a time. The SE's one amp has to put out twice the power for both drivers.
 
That's part of the reason I skipped the balanced Geek Pulse. It didn't seem worth the extra money. At the time I ordered the geek pulse, the balanced version was ~200$ more iirc. That is not worth such a minor change. But with the NFB-28, the price difference is ~70$. That is worth it if you already have the cables for it. Then again, I find smaller companies, like ZMF Headphones and Audio-GD seem to price their stuff fairly as opposed to the outrageous prices the TH600 or the Beyerdynamic T1 were selling at when it came out.

 

[Rockcoon]

In context of this tread the question should sound somewhat like that:
 
What is better:
NFB 29 SE+ any popular cans (HE500, LCD2, HD800)
or
NFB 28 Balanced+ same gears
 
We need A/B testing

 

[jodgey4]

Kingwa says it should be darn near the exact same. And unless anybody has both gears, you ain't gonna know, and Kingwa has been trustworthy in the past. Look at the pictures of the insides... both have shielding from noise, big power supplies, the same grade of parts... I'd trust the designer on this. The only way to test it would to be to track down one of the few people with a 29 and bring them out to a meetup where someone has a 28.

 

[PacoTaco]

Quote:

  Kingwa says it should be darn near the exact same. And unless anybody has both gears, it ain't gonna happen. Look at the pictures of the insides... both have shielding from noise, big power supplies, the same grade of parts... I'd trust the designer on this. The only way to test it would to be to track down one of the few people with a 29 and bring them out to a meetup where someone has a 28.

 
I was more arguing if balanced makes a difference or not in general,, not really just exclusively to the 29 vs 28. It just all comes down to the engineering of the amp, and both are done very well, so it doesn't surprise me that the 29 and the 28 would sound nearly the same. The 28 just has an easier solution of the same problem (provide the clearest sound with as little distortion, electrical or otherwise, as you can.)
 

  I wrote: "It is usual, but not necessary, for an amp offering both balanced and SE outputs that the balanced one is better than the SE"
So the answer to your question is negative.

 
A better way to frame his question would be "What if two amps were built from the same parts but had a different system to reach the same solution, which would be better?" To which my answer would be, "A SE done right can sound exactly like a balanced amp of the same specs (as in, same DAC, same power output it just takes a little more effort to get to that point." Balanced just provides the cleanest sound and most power in the easiest way (I.E., matching the parts with the number of channels.)
 
 

   
The theory is sound (less power to the SE output on a balanced amp) but the conclusion isn't.  Just because it has less power, doesn't mean that it will be noticeable.  The NFB-28 has 8W per channel into 40ohm.  Halve that and you still have WAY more than most headphones need.  The differences in sound at that point shouldn't be coming from the difference in power output (assuming you're not using an HE-6 or something).

 I agree with you there.

 

[DecentLevi]

... Whew! any more arguing about balanced and I think I'll loose my balance. Anyway I have tried balanced plugs at a few meets and while I don't deny it sounded clear and great, the only difference I ever noticed was the volume was louder due to this config.
 
Anyway I have done a lot of research, slept on it before impulse buying (that one helps a lot, trust me!), and heard back from the Audio-Gd man himself. It turns out that while the NFB 11 version 2014 has much improved USB chip and sound over the 2012 version, it's still not comparable to the sound of the NFB 28/29. I'm sure the sound of the 28/29 are phenomenal so I would just about pull the trigger for the 29, but being a bit of a traveler, I have 'nightmares' about lugging that huge, fragile 80's VCR size box around with me. So it looks like my hat goes off the the infamous Gustard which, although DAC only, has the same DAC chip with at least as good (probably a tad better) sound than the DAC of 28/29's, yet half the size and a tad cheaper.

 

[PacoTaco]

  ... Whew! any more arguing about balanced and I think I'll loose my balance. Anyway I have tried balanced plugs at a few meets and while I don't deny it sounded clear and great, the only difference I ever noticed was the volume was louder due to this config.
 
Anyway I have done a lot of research, slept on it before impulse buying (that one helps a lot, trust me!), and heard back from the Audio-Gd man himself. It turns out that while the NFB 11 version 2014 has much improved USB chip and sound over the 2012 version, it's still not comparable to the sound of the NFB 28/29. I'm sure the sound of the 28/29 are phenomenal so I would just about pull the trigger for the 29, but being a bit of a traveler, I have 'nightmares' about lugging that huge, fragile 80's VCR size box around with me. So it looks like my hat goes off the the infamous Gustard which, although DAC only, has the same DAC chip with at least as good (probably a tad better) sound than the DAC of 28/29's, yet half the size and a tad cheaper.

It's mostly cheaper because it lacks the amp. It's still a good choice though, but the NFB-28/29 is far from fragile. Good choice though if you're traveling. However, if you're just going for a DAC, I may have to suggest the Oppo HA-2 with a standalone amp, as that would even easier to carry around and is apparently a very good DAC for portable use.

 

[bimmer100]

I agree. The oppo ha-2 is perfect for portable use and has fantastic sound. But the NFB-28 is way better and if you have any headphones that actually need amplification, it's no brainer. If you are "portable" get the oppo-ha2 and a good set of IEM's. My fav are the Fidue a83's.
But my portable options currently are creative sound blaster e5, centrance hifi skyn with extreme amplifier option, and hopefully later this year my geek wave xdf256 with the newer saber Dac.

I'm a bit confused why you would buy anything that is for desktop use and want to lug it around. Albeit the NFB-28 is nothing short of a tank and very sturdy and well built. I personally have never heard any amp/Dac that bests it. I would be so happy if it was physically possible to pack the power of a NFB-28 into a portable size. It's simply not possible. But it would be cool.

 

[jodgey4]

You could probably get close to the sound and power with a Centrance M8 balanced. Similar price, sound, functionality... except tiny!