ClintonL
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Looking to upgrade from my nfb-11 anyone know what the next logical step is? I own lcd-x's.
Audio-GD NFB-11.32 & NFB-11 (2014) (Delivery & Impression Thread)!!!
- Thread starter HeatFan12
- Start date
My LCD-X still sound pretty amazing with my good old NFB11
Now this is really interesting. R2R version of NFB11, the R2R11. I don't think I've seen any R2R at this price point.
Any guinea pig who already owns the 11.28 willing to take 1 for the team and get the R2R for a comparison review?
http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm
Any guinea pig who already owns the 11.28 willing to take 1 for the team and get the R2R for a comparison review?
http://audio-gd.com/R2R/R2R11/R2R11EN.htm
alphanumerix1
1000+ Head-Fier
Does the current base unit for $330 include the 9028/usb or do i specify the upgrade when i email them?
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it includes, the only upgrade is the TXCO.
pokemonmaster
New Head-Fier
Hey, does anyone have any experience using the NFB 11.28 with LCD series? Does this amp drive those headphones well, or do I need to look for upgrades?
JaMo
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Hi,
I have got my R2R-11 delivered today. I hooked it up in my network through PiCoreplayer 3.21 (RaspberryPi3B) via USB (Amanero) as a DAC-Preamp RCA's out to my McCormack DNA-1 Rev. A-mod and a pair of nice swedish speakers. I am in love with the R2R-11 already. I know it will need a 3-400 h burn in before matured but Wow(!) It is clear, spacey and involving right out of the box. Yes I own the 11.28 (w. TCXO) too so a future comparison is possible. But that later. This small R2R-11 is fantastic value I think. I agree with Kingwa saying: " They are not which is better but most different on the flavor and worth own both...."
For me the DSD-capability is a good feature. I have pretty much DSD-music besides the other PCM's and other formats. I have tested and it works just fine. This is my first R2R-device I think this will be a favorite.
To be continued.
Maybe a new thread should be started for the R2R-11 but I wrote here anyway because of the -11 formfactor/functions (Moderator may correct this.)
/Jan
I have got my R2R-11 delivered today. I hooked it up in my network through PiCoreplayer 3.21 (RaspberryPi3B) via USB (Amanero) as a DAC-Preamp RCA's out to my McCormack DNA-1 Rev. A-mod and a pair of nice swedish speakers. I am in love with the R2R-11 already. I know it will need a 3-400 h burn in before matured but Wow(!) It is clear, spacey and involving right out of the box. Yes I own the 11.28 (w. TCXO) too so a future comparison is possible. But that later. This small R2R-11 is fantastic value I think. I agree with Kingwa saying: " They are not which is better but most different on the flavor and worth own both...."
For me the DSD-capability is a good feature. I have pretty much DSD-music besides the other PCM's and other formats. I have tested and it works just fine. This is my first R2R-device I think this will be a favorite.
To be continued.
Maybe a new thread should be started for the R2R-11 but I wrote here anyway because of the -11 formfactor/functions (Moderator may correct this.)
/Jan
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junki
100+ Head-Fier
Hi, thought I'd share some experiments I did with my NFB 11.28 (Amanero interface with TXCO upgrade) in optimizing for my subjective audio preference.
I used a pair of RBH HP-2 with very fast beryllium dynamic drivers for monitoring.
When I first started using the NFB (ESS SABRE 9028), I was very impressed with the transparency it was able to reproduce. Switching back between the NFB and my Dragonfly Red (ESS SABRE 9018), which I've been evaluating against a Stoner Acoustics UD125 (AKM "Velvet Sound" AK4490) for office listening, I noticed I enjoyed music from the DFR more. Careful A/B listening made me realize that while both were more than adequate in detail retrieval, clarity, etc., the DFR produced what felt like warmer, more lush, more liquid sound. This was particularly evident when listening to the track Luminous by Alice and the Glass Lake. Sourced from the DFR, vocals were smooth and often times euphoric and the piano was liquid smooth, while the NFB produced what felt like relentless analytical superiority--there was a slight overall level of graininess and I could hear the hissy breath intakes and leaks even during the airy vocal parts heavy with reverb, which distracted from any feeling of euphoria.
Hypothesis 1: Warmness
My first hypothesis was that DFR produced a warmer sound. Fortunately, the NFB is configurable! I set the jumper in place for the warmer sound signature.... and it was disappointing. A/B testing it several times, I sounded like that it merely recessed the treble range rather than change or improve the timbre of vocals and instruments. While I could see how that would help with brighter headphones (as the feature is stated to be designed for), the HP-2 is definitely not a bright headphone by any measure, and the result was softer and quieter details in the music, which resulted in an overall feeling of relative muddiness compared to stock. I took the jumpers off.
Hypothesis 2: Digital Filter
(The above displays the PCB of the NFB-1, which is similar to but not exactly the same as the pin layout in NFB-11.28. Specifically, FIR_0 and FIR_1 are switched on NFB-11.28. You can tell by reading the pin labels.)
Digital filters can have subtle and meaningful impacts to the sound, especially around frequency transitions. Looking inside my NFB, I realized that the NFB 11.28 stock filter setting is for "soft roll-off, minimum" with a jumper already on FIR_0 from the factory. According to this incredibly helpful article, minimum phase soft roll-off filters are one of the newer filtering methodologies that adds a bit of (not very audible) phase distortion for better time response. Better time response (and drivers fast enough to take advantage of it) makes sense for a more analytical sound, but I really wanted that liquid smooth sound in my music. Keeping the stock jumper in place, I pushed another jumper into FIR_1 for a soft roll-off, linear phase filter setting. (See Appendum section below for an in-depth explanation between minimum phase vs. linear phase filtering.)
And wow. The sound my NFB produces now is very close to the DFR. A/B listening, I don't think they're exactly the same, but I really can't pinpoint where they differ. Both sound lush, liquid, and smooth and when listening to Luminous both send shivers down my spine. The graininess and articulation I complained about previously have softened up. I'm loving it!
APPENDUM:
Here is another great article on minimum phase filtering vs. linear/zero-phase filtering: https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks/filters/Minimum_Phase_Filters.html. Specifically the section titled "Is Linear Phase Really Ideal for Audio?"
TL;DR: More or less aligned to the article in the OP: Minimum phase removes pre-ringing by reproducing an impulse with minimum delay, whereas linear/zero-phase filters equally space out every impulse and evenly divides the ringing before and after the impulse. The result is the former results in no audible pre-impulse ringing while the later reproduces the wave form to the maximal extent.
I used a pair of RBH HP-2 with very fast beryllium dynamic drivers for monitoring.
When I first started using the NFB (ESS SABRE 9028), I was very impressed with the transparency it was able to reproduce. Switching back between the NFB and my Dragonfly Red (ESS SABRE 9018), which I've been evaluating against a Stoner Acoustics UD125 (AKM "Velvet Sound" AK4490) for office listening, I noticed I enjoyed music from the DFR more. Careful A/B listening made me realize that while both were more than adequate in detail retrieval, clarity, etc., the DFR produced what felt like warmer, more lush, more liquid sound. This was particularly evident when listening to the track Luminous by Alice and the Glass Lake. Sourced from the DFR, vocals were smooth and often times euphoric and the piano was liquid smooth, while the NFB produced what felt like relentless analytical superiority--there was a slight overall level of graininess and I could hear the hissy breath intakes and leaks even during the airy vocal parts heavy with reverb, which distracted from any feeling of euphoria.
Hypothesis 1: Warmness
My first hypothesis was that DFR produced a warmer sound. Fortunately, the NFB is configurable! I set the jumper in place for the warmer sound signature.... and it was disappointing. A/B testing it several times, I sounded like that it merely recessed the treble range rather than change or improve the timbre of vocals and instruments. While I could see how that would help with brighter headphones (as the feature is stated to be designed for), the HP-2 is definitely not a bright headphone by any measure, and the result was softer and quieter details in the music, which resulted in an overall feeling of relative muddiness compared to stock. I took the jumpers off.
Hypothesis 2: Digital Filter
(The above displays the PCB of the NFB-1, which is similar to but not exactly the same as the pin layout in NFB-11.28. Specifically, FIR_0 and FIR_1 are switched on NFB-11.28. You can tell by reading the pin labels.)
Digital filters can have subtle and meaningful impacts to the sound, especially around frequency transitions. Looking inside my NFB, I realized that the NFB 11.28 stock filter setting is for "soft roll-off, minimum" with a jumper already on FIR_0 from the factory. According to this incredibly helpful article, minimum phase soft roll-off filters are one of the newer filtering methodologies that adds a bit of (not very audible) phase distortion for better time response. Better time response (and drivers fast enough to take advantage of it) makes sense for a more analytical sound, but I really wanted that liquid smooth sound in my music. Keeping the stock jumper in place, I pushed another jumper into FIR_1 for a soft roll-off, linear phase filter setting. (See Appendum section below for an in-depth explanation between minimum phase vs. linear phase filtering.)
And wow. The sound my NFB produces now is very close to the DFR. A/B listening, I don't think they're exactly the same, but I really can't pinpoint where they differ. Both sound lush, liquid, and smooth and when listening to Luminous both send shivers down my spine. The graininess and articulation I complained about previously have softened up. I'm loving it!
APPENDUM:
Here is another great article on minimum phase filtering vs. linear/zero-phase filtering: https://www.dsprelated.com/freebooks/filters/Minimum_Phase_Filters.html. Specifically the section titled "Is Linear Phase Really Ideal for Audio?"
TL;DR: More or less aligned to the article in the OP: Minimum phase removes pre-ringing by reproducing an impulse with minimum delay, whereas linear/zero-phase filters equally space out every impulse and evenly divides the ringing before and after the impulse. The result is the former results in no audible pre-impulse ringing while the later reproduces the wave form to the maximal extent.
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can i ask if i can use my nfb11.28 as a volume control if i rca out to jbl lsr305?
Yes, I use it this way. Just set the switch to Variable and connect the RCA outputs to JBL's 1/4" TRS.
@junki, thank you for sharing this discovery. One weird thing is that my default, stock setting was set on FIR_0 and FIR_2, which would be "Fast roll-off, Minimum". Until now I have been listening to that default filter setting in a "warm flavour" mode. I actually enjoyed it a lot on my headphones, but it made my monitor speakers slightly too bassy.
Now I have switched to "Slow roll-off, Linear" and disabled the warm flavour and I am quite happy with the results, although the sound from my headphones isn't as warm anymore. Can't tell right now which one I prefer, but the sound still seems to be pleasant while retaining more clarity.
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junki
100+ Head-Fier
The difference between fast vs. slow roll-off is a tradeoff between optimizing for more information on both ends of the frequency response vs. less ringing. Since DACs oversample anyway, there is no reason not to use slow roll off because the rolling off will occur in the ultrasonic spectrum anyway.
@Luminance, can you share a picture of your FIR_2 pin? I couldn't find mine on my PCB. If FIR_2 means connecting the S/D and GND pins, then I'm curious how they did so because those pins are not adjacent to each other.
While I believe soft roll off linear phase filtering is the overall best for audio, I'd like to play with apodizing and hybrid filters, both of which involve the FIR_2 pin.
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FIR_2 is right below the FIR_0, slightly hidden under the optical input chip. Looking forward for your further impressions!
junki
100+ Head-Fier
Thanks so much! Audio-gd wrote me the same, but I haven't gotten a chance to open my NFB yet. Your photo definitely confirms the location.
Now, how in the world did you get the jumper off the FIR_2 pin? Did you remove the optical-in chip?
No, I don't think the jumper would fit under the optical chip, it's too big. My FIR_2 was sticking out, touching the FIR_0 jumper and I saw it immediately. The pins and the jumpers are flexible enough, so you should be able to push / take out the FIR_2 without too much hassle, there should be just enough place.
Hello guys!
I checked my nfb 11. 28 and it also had jumpers FIR0 and FIR2.
jumper in FIF2 was cutted shorter, because there is no place under optical-in chip
I removed optical by single philips screw and now I can easily change filter settings will try now!
I checked my nfb 11. 28 and it also had jumpers FIR0 and FIR2.
jumper in FIF2 was cutted shorter, because there is no place under optical-in chip
I removed optical by single philips screw and now I can easily change filter settings
will try now!
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