[Sonic Defender]

@thefitz I still think in blind listening tests, if the sound signatures were identical between two hypothetical devices, one a full sized portable DAC/amp say the size of the HA-2 and the other one the size of the built in devices in the Cypher, I don't think any sound quality differences would be audible simply due to the difference in form factor sizes. Sure if there was significant overheating, or improper shielding, perhaps, but I don't think there is really any difference purely on size alone in this case. I think for Apple users the Cypher must be a brilliant step-up which is what it was meant for.

 

[thefitz]

 
What are these "real usb dacs" available on the market today?

Really? There are dozens, including a few mentioned in the last few posts. Look up stuff by Chord, FiiO, Creative, OPPO, et al.

 

[thefitz]

   I think for Apple users the Cypher must be a brilliant step-up which is what it was meant for.

Bingo. I agree there.
 
What you've described above seems to imply that all DACs sound the same - and I've taken heat for implying that USB cables do not improve sound quality.

 

[BlinkST]

 
Really? There are dozens, including a few mentioned in the last few posts. Look up stuff by Chord, FiiO, Creative, OPPO, et al.

 
Chord's MOJO has iPhone compatibility (Via CCK), according to their page. The same goes for Creative's Soundblaster E5 and OPPO HA-2, which officially support Lightning-out. The lone exception might be Fiio's products. I'm therefore confused as to what these "real USB DACs" are that you were talking about, as most of those products (Except for one) are as accessible to iPhone users as they are to Android users. 
 
Maybe I'm the only person who remembers that iPod users were using LOD interconnects with their amps for years. 

 

[brent75]

 
Yes, when we're comparing decades-old solid state electronics to current electronics, you're going to encounter some major inefficiencies in size. What I'm referring to is comparing the Cypher cable vs. a FiiO E18 or Sound Blaster E5, something like that - unless Moore's law took off over the past year or so, you're not going to get something that flat-out outperforms something the size of a Chord Mojo fit the form factor of... a volume adjustment remote.
 
I think a lot of the ZOMG behind the Cypher is that Apple users finally have an "external DAC" for their oppressive devices, even though the real estate of this "external DAC" rivals the real estate of the phone's internal DAC. If this came to Android first, I don't think anybody would care.
 
Which is so "Apple", too - let's market something that's been around for years as the second coming.

 
I think you're totally missing the point - it's not about solely improving performance...it's about improving performance while not sacrificing portability/convenience. Translation: I DON'T HAVE TO CARRY A FUGGIN' BRICK AROUND FOR IMPROVED SOUND.
 
Before Cipher the options would have been this:
 
1. Sine straight into headphone jack of iPhone.
 
-or-
 
2. Sine into external DAC/AMP strapped to an iPhone.
 
 
No you can slide Sine/Cipher straight into iPhone right in between those two options. I get enough of the performance of option 2 (I'm in no way claiming that Cipher can equal Mojo)...without sacrificing any of the portability/convenience of option 1. This is huge for me! I listen outdoors for an hour ever night while I walk my dogs -- each are about 60 pounds. I'm managing them with my right hand holding the leash, while my left hand changes songs/volume/etc. This was a P.I.T.A with the external options I'd tried previously (Q1, HA-2, Mojo). Now it's a cinch. And besides, with external noise factors, I don't even appreciate all that something like Mojo can do -- I just need something to bump up the volume and clean it up a little bit.
 
Cipher checks all those boxes, and I couldn't be happier.

 

[thefitz]

   
Chord's MOJO has iPhone compatibility (Via CCK), according to their page. The same goes for Creative's Soundblaster E5 and OPPO HA-2, which officially support Lightning-out. The lone exception might be Fiio's products. I'm therefore confused as to what these "real USB DACs" are that you were talking about, as most of those products (Except for one) are as accessible to iPhone users as they are to Android users. 
 
Maybe I'm the only person who remembers that iPod users were using LOD interconnects with their amps for years. 

I'll have to double check, but I was under the impression that most of those would work solely as an amp, and any "out" would use the iPod's DAC but with a line out signal. I was under the impression that 24/192 was not possible out of an iPhone.

 

[thefitz]

   
I think you're totally missing the point - it's not about solely improving performance...it's about improving performance while not sacrificing portability/convenience. Translation: I DON'T HAVE TO CARRY A FUGGIN' BRICK AROUND FOR IMPROVED SOUND.
 
Before Cipher the options would have been this:
 
1. Sine straight into headphone jack of iPhone.
 
-or-
 
2. Sine into external DAC/AMP strapped to an iPhone.
 
 
No you can slide Sine/Cipher straight into iPhone right in between those two options. I get enough of the performance of option 2 (I'm in no way claiming that Cipher can equal Mojo)...without sacrificing any of the portability/convenience of option 1. This is huge for me! I listen outdoors for an hour ever night while I walk my dogs -- each are about 60 pounds. I'm managing them with my right hand holding the leash, while my left hand changes songs/volume/etc. This was a P.I.T.A with the external options I'd tried previously (Q1, HA-2, Mojo). Now it's a cinch. And besides, with external noise factors, I don't even appreciate all that something like Mojo can do -- I just need something to bump up the volume and clean it up a little bit.
 
Cipher checks all those boxes, and I couldn't be happier.

If you have 2 60lbs dogs you can EASILY have them carry around your whole indoor rig!
 
It is indeed a form-factor improvement, which is a plus - but one thing it is NOT is an audio revolution. If the form factor is all-important, there's no competition. If it's not important (like it isn't for me, listening at a desk), I'm skeptical that a remote-sized DAC does what phone-sized DAC does.

 

[brent75]

 
If you have 2 60lbs dogs you can EASILY have them carry around your whole indoor rig!
 
It is indeed a form-factor improvement, which is a plus - but one thing it is NOT is an audio revolution. If the form factor is all-important, there's no competition. If it's not important (like it isn't for me, listening at a desk), I'm skeptical that a remote-sized DAC does what phone-sized DAC does.

Hell, I just need to get an insanely long extension cord so I can plug my system into a desktop system back home.

 
Otherwise, yeah -- I would never tell someone to get a Sine + Cipher for sitting at their desk. But when you're out and about and you're on the Apple ecosystem and you want on/over-ear rather than IEMs, there is nothing better.

 

[GrouchoMarx1933]

If you have 2 60lbs dogs you can EASILY have them carry around your whole indoor rig!

It is indeed a form-factor improvement, which is a plus - but one thing it is NOT is an audio revolution. If the form factor is all-important, there's no competition. If it's not important (like it isn't for me, listening at a desk), I'm skeptical that a remote-sized DAC does what phone-sized DAC does.

I haven't heard anyone say the Sine is an audio revolution. What I and others have said is that the Sine+Cypher+iPhone combo is a good enough balance between sound quality and convenience to be our primary portable rig. Emphasis on portable. If you buy the Sine and Cypher bundle, it's only $50 more than the Sine by itself. That is to me a reasonable price for the cable and the sound quality it gives me, which is an improvement over the iPhone's internal DAC and headphone jack.

To get a good portable battery powered DAC/amp combo, one that won't drive your crazy with digititus, you're going to be spending around $600 for a Mojo or Geek Out V2 plus (both of which work with an iPhone so this has nothing to do with Android or iOS being better or more capable). If you need it to double as your desktop rig, that might be a better purchase for you. If you're only using your phone as a portable setup, then the Sine+Cypher makes for a very good value.

The other option is a good PMP, which sadly cost $800 and up for the quality ones (unless you get a Pono but there are drawbacks with that as well). And even there you have to carry more than one device if you're on the go because you'll inevitably have your phone with you as well.

So excuse us for being excited about a reasonably priced, good quality portable solution. The Sine+Cypher is the Magni/Modi of the portable world, cheap, convenient, and good enough for most people. A nice step up from the built in hardware. You're comparing those things to the portable equivalent of a Bifrost and Asgard 2, it's apples and oranges.

 

[bahula03]

 
If you have 2 60lbs dogs you can EASILY have them carry around your whole indoor rig!
 
It is indeed a form-factor improvement, which is a plus - but one thing it is NOT is an audio revolution. If the form factor is all-important, there's no competition. If it's not important (like it isn't for me, listening at a desk), I'm skeptical that a remote-sized DAC does what phone-sized DAC does.

 
If it's not important to you, why do you care about it so much?

 

[thefitz]

Granted I wasn't current with iPhone DAC capabilities, the reception here has been closer to 'must have' than 'hey, this is nice'. When I say "desktop" I'm referring to battery powered DACs.
 
I guess I'm skeptical than a remote-sized chip offers that much more audio quality compared to the onboard DAC - and especially since I'm reading iDevices stick with 24/48 and most of the benefits come from DSPs (which should by no means be proprietary). Then comes the $150 price tag - which leaves you with a whole host of options. Granted, none that small.
 
I'm going to jump the gun further and ask where all you "please, nobody can hear past 24/48 anyway" folks were when I was arguing with a guy about USB cables and magic paper improving sound quality.

 

[sikki-six]

How are the Sines for us big-headed folk? I'm about to pull the trigger next week and this is one question that always comes up for me.

For reference: 
- the V1 over-ear Momentums fit my head with ease 
- M100s only just (with a cap on it's a bit tight)
- the M80s = too small 
- Aurvana Lives = just right fully extended
- Focal Spirit Pros have clicks to spare

Cheers!

 

[thefitz]

  How are the Sines for us big-headed folk? I'm about to pull the trigger next week and this is one question that always comes up for me.

For reference: 
- the V1 over-ear Momentums fit my head with ease 
- M100s only just (with a cap on it's a bit tight)
- the M80s = too small 
- Aurvana Lives = just right fully extended
- Focal Spirit Pros have clicks to spare

Cheers!

Size 8 cap and I don't need to extend the headband all the way. So there. They sit on your ears like the original Momentums.

 

[siderak]

I ordered this case and it fits the sine + cables super perfectly.


UltraShell Headphones Case for Parrot Zik, B&O PLAY by BANG & OLUFSEN BeoPlay H2, H6, H8, Bose QC3, QC25, QC2, QC15, AE2w, AE2i, AE2, SoundTrue / Hard Carrying Case / Travel Bag (Brown Embossed) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F0R0SL8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_obeyxb2CZ9B82

 

[incursore61]

this is my case:
 
 
https://www.amazon.it/gp/product/B016KV79X8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1