[Stevenwashere]

Not me. As good as it is, there is no way to get rear audio cues from two channel unless you have very specific encoding like Dolby Pro Logic II. Remember, this Mobius 3D (when decoding just 2 channels) is emulation of a room with two speakers in front of you. Since when have two speakers in front of you given you really good rear audio cues? Think about it. Unless those speakers themselves have some weird processing applied, you ain't getting rear cues that sound like they're behind you. At best, they'll sound different from front cues, but in the virtual space, they'll still be coming from those speakers.

Whomever said it does give good rear cues, well, I'm sorry, but no. There ARE things like Dolby Pro Logic II that gives a very good surround effect from two channels, but in general, UNLESS you have specialized encoding like this, you're only gonna get plain stereo.

And come on. When you turn 3D off in 7.1, you get the SAME sound as stereo. There is no SURROUND EFFECT, NOTHING. INSTEAD OF WINDOWS CONVERTING AUDIO TO 2 CHANNEL FOR YOUR HEADPHONES TO LISTEN, IT WILL SEND A 7.1 SIGNAL, BUT IT WILL BE THE MOBIUS INSTEAD THAT WILL CONVERT THAT TO TWO CHANNEL. IT IS THE SAME THING, JUST DONE AT A DIFFERENT TIME in the audio chain before it reaches the transducers.

I can't caps lock this enough.

If ANYONE HERE has ever used a gaming dac/amp, like say the Creative X7. It takes a 7.1 signal. IF SBX SURROUND IS OFF, you get regular stereo, as the X7 will just convert that 7.1 to stereo without the surround processing. If you set windows to just 2 channel, your X7 doesn't have to do it. It's already been done. It's really that simple.

No matter how you slice it, all signals JUST eventually become two channels, even if it was 20 speakers being converted for a headphone to hear. Where you have processing being done to virtualize the speakers with two channels is the question. So if you turn 3D off, YOU NO LONGER GET THAT VIRTUALIZATION.

Then I don't get the logic of being able to turn it off separately for those modes. The FAQ implies differently. I want to hear directly from audeze for clarity because to me it's just people saying things that conflict what I understand from the FAQ and then someone said it still works.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

If you set the Mobius to 2ch vs 7.1 with 3D off, they will sound nigh identical. The only difference being that the conversion is done elsewhere.

Also 7.1 may be capped to a lower bitrate than 2 channels. Say in the X7, I can do 24/192 in two channel, but since I leave it at 7.1, my max is 16/48. (I believe the Mobius 2ch mode is also capped at 16/48, until you use Hi Res which is 32/192, I believe. im not at home to prove this but I'm 99% sure).

If you're about that bitrate life, I guess that means you get a cleaner higher quality signal when forcing 2 channel at the Windows level.

In the case of the Mobius, it has Hi Res mode, so I honestly don't really see a reason to switch or from 7.1 to 2ch mode if you just use 7.1 with 3D off, since Hi Res is a better choice than either. Again, same effect, conversion to stereo done at a different time.

I guess, and this is assumption, 2ch mode is there for devices that don't have 7.1 or Hi Res. Since I don't have anything to connect that DOESN'T allow 7.1/Hi Res through USB, I can't say for certain. But again, my opinion is that it exists for Max Compatibility. If your pc supports 7.1, there really is no need to ever use the 2ch mode even if you turn 3D off.

There's no need to wait for an official answer. It's as basic as can get. Anyone with a Mobius can tell you that 7.1 with 3D off sounds exactly the same as Mobius in 2ch mode. There's no reason it shouldn't.


Edit: Sorry for the many edits. Was trying to figure out how to say it as plain as day. And cut a lot of unnecessary info.

 

[Audeze]

@Stevenwashere - I am not sure I understand your question correctly.

The 3D in Mobius is based on WavesNX and has several components.
1. Handling multichannel audio
2. Speaker emulation
3. Room reflections
4. Head-tracking.

To get good surround sound emulation you need to do all of these well. For example if we do not have room reflections, our brain cannot process positional cues well. Same goes for head-tracking. Even if you are not moving your head side-to-side, your head is always moving slightly. Our brain uses these micro-movements to figure out positional audio. To get a good sense of 3D, you also have to emulate the speakers as if they were in a room.

When you turn off 3D, all this goes away and the signal is summed appropriately and sent to the two planar drivers. It will sound like a regular headphone. The front left, back left and side left audio comes through the left speaker. Center comes out like mono, on both drivers simultaneously. Right side audio comes out of the right side planar transducer. - This is not a typical use case

When you turn on the 3D, all the steps above are done in near-realtime and the planar drivers deliver the sound.
The DSP processes the audio (side left, front left etc) and positions them and fools your brain into thinking that they are coming from appropriately placed speakers.

Not sure if this completely answers your question.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

THANK YOU @Audeze for confirming what I've been trying to tell him. Lol. It's so simple, I don't understand why he's confused.

Can you verify that the main reason for 2ch mode via USB is mainly for compatibility reasons, and not because it's necessary if you have 7.1 amd HiRes? Considering turning off 3D with 7.1 just turns it to stereo, (as Audeze said, the signal is summed up and sent to the two 'speakers') and Hi Res is the better option when it's available, 2Ch in this instance isn't necessary.

I guess the option may also be there because there are people that think 7.1 mode without 3D processing will sound different. They need to be told "HEY, THIS IS STEREO."

By compatibility, I mean there may be devices that the Mobius might connect to but neither do 7.1 or Hi Res, so 2Ch mode must be there.

 

[Stevenwashere]

You are being a jerk. I was confused. You saying something in caps doesn't make it clearer. And there was someone else saying it still had virtual surround sound. My current headphones do virtualized surround sound without head tracking so you saying that since it didn't have head tracking it couldn't do the surround sound was not making sense based on personal experience(limited experience but that doesn't mean be a dick).

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

I've been called that many times, lol. I know I'm a jerk. :/

Audeze COULD have just done the virtual surround without the headtracking. But it's not possible on the Mobius currently. They are tied together.

You can have virtual surround without headtracking on many devices.

That being said, you can't have headtracking without virtual surround. It's not possible. You need a virtual space to move sound cues around in. You can lower the room ambience to minimum, for the least virtualization, but there will always be a need for it.

When I, a few days ago, suggested for virtual surround on the Mobius to be separated from the headtracking, I meant I would like to use the virtual surround without being influenced by headtracking as an option. Not the other way around. I know it isn't possible to have headtracking without the virtual surround.

And again in as simple way as possible, once you turn 3D off in 7.1, the 7.1 is no longer surround, and finishes up as stereo.

 

[Stevenwashere]

@Stevenwashere - I am not sure I understand your question correctly.

The 3D in Mobius is based on WavesNX and has several components.
1. Handling multichannel audio
2. Speaker emulation
3. Room reflections
4. Head-tracking.

To get good surround sound emulation you need to do all of these well. For example if we do not have room reflections, our brain cannot process positional cues well. Same goes for head-tracking. Even if you are not moving your head side-to-side, your head is always moving slightly. Our brain uses these micro-movements to figure out positional audio. To get a good sense of 3D, you also have to emulate the speakers as if they were in a room.

When you turn off 3D, all this goes away and the signal is summed appropriately and sent to the two planar drivers. It will sound like a regular headphone. The front left, back left and side left audio comes through the left speaker. Center comes out like mono, on both drivers simultaneously. Right side audio comes out of the right side planar transducer. - This is not a typical use case

When you turn on the 3D, all the steps above are done in near-realtime and the planar drivers deliver the sound.
The DSP processes the audio (side left, front left etc) and positions them and fools your brain into thinking that they are coming from appropriately placed speakers.

Not sure if this completely answers your question.

My question is can I have virtual surround sound with head tracking. I will explain with an example.

I am playing pubg. An explosion happens in front of me. My current gaming headset sounds as if it happened in front of me no matter how I turn. The Mobius is going to handle things in such a way that it will sound in front of me when I look forward. Then where I turn my head to the right it will sound like the explosion happened to the left. I do not want this to happen in my current gaming set up this is not useful and will only cause confusion.

So is there a way so that will not happen? From my understanding of the FAQ it was simply turning on heactrackikg but that is not the case apparently.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

@Stevenwashere

Ok, I totally understand what you're asking. Your last post clarified it.

I would like that too. But right now, it's not possible.

@Audeze he wants the virtual surround aspect without the headtracking as an option. I think this should be a possible option, perhaps in the software, where at the very least, like 3D auto, but instant, the center is ALWAYS in front of you regardless of head movement.

I, like him, am quite accustomed to virtual surround without headtracking where our brains compensate positional cues, even if we move our head. It's not completely necessary, but an option would be nice.

 

[Shryquill]

This is certainly possible. The Waves Nx and B360 plugins work this way to decode and playback Ambisonics content.

That's fantastic to hear!

I realise at present the Audeze team must have enough on their plates to keep busy with, but I do wonder if that type of functionality is a direction Audeze may look at taking the Mobius, perhaps as a firmware update at some point?
Or whether it is a type feature that would rather be left to the third-party developers?

I commend your responsive and helpfulness too, I think we all do!

 

[RamSpencer]

I've tested this out. 3d just enables headtracking. 7.1 still works like normal without 3d. I like 3d off at all times unless playing 3d games.

That's not technically right. Audeze has specifically stated you don't get any of Waves processing with head tracking off. Maybe there is some virtualization happening from your source automatically or something.

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

@RamSpencer

That is why Steven got confused.

Unless he's got some crazy bug on his unit that allowed virtual surround to stay on. XD

Otherwise, as you implied, it's not right, since 7.1 without 3D is just stereo.

Now I feel horrible about being a jerk to Steven. I had missed that post.

 

[Stevenwashere]

@Stevenwashere

Ok, I totally understand what you're asking. Your last post clarified it.

I would like that too. But right now, it's not possible.

@Audeze he wants the virtual surround aspect without the headtracking as an option. I think this should be a possible option, perhaps in the software, where at the very least, like 3D auto, but instant, the center is ALWAYS in front of you regardless of head movement.

I, like him, am quite accustomed to virtual surround without headtracking where our brains compensate positional cues, even if we move our head. It's not completely necessary, but an option would be nice.

Would switching from auto to manual be something along the line of what I am looking for? I don't really know what those mean and i haven't seen anyone say much about them.

 

[Lunar Eclipse]

@Audeze @Mad Lust Envy A flow chart in the faq would be helpful for people not accustomed to surround and dsp tech. Describing signal flow, where and how decoding happens in a loose conversational tone can be confusing.

7.1 channel: 24/48
2 channel hi res: 24/96
2 channel: 16/48
ldac is 32/96 in android settings(but with a lower bitrate than all usb connections, caps out at 990kbps According to sonys ldac page and the ldac wiki, 24/96. That is where I get confused. Is ldac 32 or 24 bit capable?
https://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/hiresaudio/ldac.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDAC_(codec)
https://audeze.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...-1-channel-to-2-channel-or-Hi-Res-Mode-in-USB

 

[Mad Lust Envy]

Would switching from auto to manual be something along the line of what I am looking for? I don't really know what those mean and i haven't seen anyone say much about them.

3D Auto is more closer to what you want, but unfortunately there is still a delay between your head movements and it re-centering itself. There is still a bit of headtracking in 3D Auto. 3D manual you wouldn't want as that is where the audio stays in one fixed point and if you move your head around, it will reflect that. So if you turn around in 3D manual, the sound will come from behind you.

In 3D Auto, if you turn around, the main will come from behind you, but a moment later it will turn to face you so if you're playing a game and turn around, then a moment later, the game sound will come from in front of you again even if you're still turned away from the screen.

Hopefully Audeze can allow the software at some point to disable headtracking as an option. Maybe even an extra toggle. Like: 3D Manual, 3D Auto, 3D Headtracking Off, and 3D Off. Not sure if it's a simple process for them if even possible by this point.

Either that or allow the speed of 3D Auto to be adjustible with maybe a software slider. Like for example, lowest setting being that it takes a long time to re-center, and highest level being that it ALWAYS stays centered.

 

[RPGWiZaRD]

Hmm, so many console gamers on here. I wasn't expecting that honestly. I am interested to hear what the hardcore pc gamers thinks of this thing. (And no that's not a dig at the console community) I seriously can't wait to get my hands on these cans. Looking forward to a marathon gaming session with them. I am thinking PubG, No Man's Sky, the BioShock series, Dead Space series, Arma 3, Vermintide 2, Subnautica, Witcher 3, Doom 2016, Sniper Elite 4 and then maybe throw some Rust and Ark up in there along with some atmospheric games like Amnesia. Man, the day these cans show up it's going to be one hell of a gaming binge. lol

I'm a PC gamer only, my last "desktop" console I owned must have been a Sega Mega drive from my youth and I did get a Sony PSP to have something to do on the 8 hr or so long army off-duty bus trips but apart from that I've been #PCMR (can't stand gaming with gamepads and lack the modding and advanced configuration support of most PC games).

Sadly don't have as much time to game anymore as when I was into Unreal Tournament series where I was pretty decent. Played UT3 competitively for 2 different Warfare clans and we made it to the top of Clanbase ladder with both teams. Probably spent like over 5000 hrs on that game haha, anyway don't have nearly as much time to game anymore as I started promoting hardstyle artists on YouTube which consumes most of my sparetime so I'm more into single player games like Kindgom Come: Deliverance, Witcher 3 etc but I still care a lot about surround positioning though as it's a great immersion boost for single player games too.