[x RELIC x]

Thanks for digging up the technical and the specs, if that is true, why is it, it is almost a consensus, that it is so hard to drive well? According to your spec, it is true that it is not a difficulty phone to drive. Earlier in the thread, one poster even drives the i4 with his Liquid Gold, that is insane. The Sony 1Z SE has 60 mW per channel output at 32 Ohm, but I had to crank it up to 110/120 on the volume dial. Where is the hang up?

Different hearing abilities? People listen far too loud? The music is mastered quietly at low levels, or has a very high dynamic range? Difficult relative to most IEMs which are usually very very efficient?

I wouldn’t say it’s a consensus as there are plenty of comments saying how easy it is to drive as well. Has anyone who thinks they are hard to drive actually tried to measure what SPL they listen at? I find it ironic that many would say the Focal Utopia is really easy to drive and yet its specs are more difficult than the i4, and my direct comparison of the two shows this (Utopia needs a little more volume). An example of full size vs IEM perception of ‘difficult’.

I’ve tried the i4 from the the Liquid Gold (sounds good) and I have the volume waaaaay down so I’m obviously not feeding anywhere near the Liquid Gold’s available power in to the i4. The nice thing about the i4 is that with 35 Ohm impedance and reasonable/average sensitivity I don’t have to worry about channel imbalance or hiss like I would with most other very sensitive IEMs. My Noble K10 is around 35 Ohm impedance but the (unlisted) sensitivity is much higher than the i4 so I hear hiss and channel imbalance with the K10 at normal listening levels with the Liquid Gold (not good). If I used the full volume (available power) of the Liquid Gold with the i4 I would destroy my hearing in seconds and would likely destroy the i4 as well.

I use the double red volume range with the Mojo and the lower red volume range with the Hugo2 to get around 85dB average listening levels. That’s in the lower 1/4 of the total available volume. I’ve read others listen at much louder volumes with the Mojo but that doesn’t mean the i4 is a difficult load, it means they listen very loudly or their source music is very quiet. The i4 acts like many average full size headphones (35 Ohms, 105dB SPL/mW) so the i4 gets the best of both worlds in my opinion. Small size and not stupid efficient (no hiss or channel imbalance), but no where near difficult to drive.

Just remember that the unused power (power not being fed to reach a certain SPL) of powerful gear does not equal more bass, warmth, dynamics, etc. Those things come from tuning and implementation of the gear, contrary to popular ‘beleif’. Also consider that with as little as 0.5dB increase in volume people describe an improvement in the previously mentioned areas of sound quality. It’s how humans are wired to perceive sound and we prefer louder so many times a person will turn up the volume thinking the gear requires more power but they just prefer loud.

 

[Jalo]

@Relic, I do drive the Utopia on my 1Z and I can do it under 100/120 at high gain, volume limit off and 4.4 balance out. I will have the i4 next week to try and we'll see how that compare. Yes, I tend to listen on the loud side as I enjoy hearing and absorbing all the nuances of music. I will report once I have the chance to compare. With Campfire Vegas, I listen at 80/120 and of course some materials were recorded at lower level. You point is well taken using a SPL meter to compare actual sound level. Thanks.

 

[davidmolliere]

I use the double red volume range with the Mojo and the lower red volume range with the Hugo2 to get around 85dB average listening levels. That’s in the lower 1/4 of the total available volume.

I have never used a SPL but that's a handy indication, I for one listen from double orange to early double red and higher double red for quieter recordings or Jazz / Classical.

Thanks for the rest of your post.
One thing I have noticed is that gear that are sometimes supposed to be easy to drive from their spec sheet are not really that easy (I am thinking Vega for example), or rather it needs a powerful source to sound its best. I have read similar findings for other IEMs for example the A18/U18 which are supposed to be highly efficient (9 ohm, 117 dB I think)

When I think about it, gear that scales well and sometimes scales down bad with a limited powered source (Vega again...) maybe need headroom? I think the i4 sounds very good already with less powerful source (as pointed earlier all this at moderate volume) but it sounds significantly better with more powerful sources (not only soundstage or detail but I am thinking dynamics and micro dynamics). Not sure it's only related to pure power but also to how power is delivered, voltage swings, using capacitors etc...

 

[roymor]

Hi, recently got my LCDi4 with the cipher v2 cable. My previous gear was the isine 20 with cipher v1.
I’m still not able to get the right signature from the new set. Can someone please share some recommended Audeze iOS HQ EQ settings ?
Tried to search the thread but did not find it.

Thx
Roy

 

[x RELIC x]

I have never used a SPL but that's a handy indication, I for one listen from double orange to early double red and higher double red for quieter recordings or Jazz / Classical.

Thanks for the rest of your post.
One thing I have noticed is that gear that are sometimes supposed to be easy to drive from their spec sheet are not really that easy (I am thinking Vega for example), or rather it needs a powerful source to sound its best. I have read similar findings for other IEMs for example the A18/U18 which are supposed to be highly efficient (9 ohm, 117 dB I think)

When I think about it, gear that scales well and sometimes scales down bad with a limited powered source (Vega again...) maybe need headroom? I think the i4 sounds very good already with less powerful source (as pointed earlier all this at moderate volume) but it sounds significantly better with more powerful sources (not only soundstage or detail but I am thinking dynamics and micro dynamics). Not sure it's only related to pure power but also to how power is delivered, voltage swings, using capacitors etc...

Warning: Long post ahead... apologies.

Regarding headroom, if 120dB (the threshold of pain) isn’t enough headroom then there has to be hearing damage at play. Most people will be listening well under 115dB for dynamic peaks and you’ll need more than double the power to get from 115dB to 120dB. Even so, for 120dB dynamic peaks the i4 is still relatively easy to drive from almost any audiophile device. That’s just how it works for the power required in to a certain load, and yet myths about power overkill continue to perpetuate. I think a lot of the disconnect is that many well designed (and pleasant sounding amps) also have a high power output, but that doesn’t mean the excess power is ever actually used. Sure, some headphones like the Susvara (60 Ohm, 83dB SPL/mW) require a lot of power but we’re talking about the i4.

Also remember that the higher the resistance on the amp then the less power the amp will deliver so a manufacturer should specify what power output the gear delivers in to a certain load. For example the Hugo2 delivers 1050mW with an 8 Ohm load, but only 94mW with a 300 Ohm load. A lot of manufacturers only list the max power in to the easiest load, or users only reference this max output, which is deceiving.

For an example of a popular low power amp the ALO CDM’s max output is listed as 125mW@32 Ohm (balanced), 145mW@50 Ohms (balanced), 95mW@300 Ohms (balanced) and many owners love the warmth, impact, and authority from the CDM with full sized headphones like the HD800 and he1000 due to the excellent design and tuning of the CDM. The HD800 needs 66.6mW to reach 115dB. The CDM or Hugo2 couldn’t drive the HD800 to 120dB, but 115dB is REALLY loud already, even for dynamic peaks. The lesson here is synergy and tuning far outweigh power output.

When turning up the volume the perception is typically exactly that of more dynamics and authority, but power output quantity is always tied to volume with transducers. The more power you output the more volume you will get. I’m in agreement 100% that power IMPLEMENTATION (voltage swing, crosstalk, distortion, etc.) is the key for good sound quality, not just the power output number (1-4W etc.) once you know how much you actually need. Then the conversation can move toward much more useful and helpful comments of gear quality / measurements / tuning / synergy and preferences.

Here I take you in to the Twilight Zone....

Remember, output power is Voltage * Current = Watts. The Campfire Audio Vega (17.5 Ohm, 102dB SPL/mW) needs 1.05Vrms / 60mA / 63mW to reach 120dB. Because of the lower resistance of the Vega it needs more Current to drive than the i4 (35 Ohms, 105dB SPL/mW). So, ironically, the Vega needs around twice as much output power than the i4 (1.05Vrms / 30mA / 31.5mW) to reach 120dB SPL since they have around the same dB SPL/mW sensitivity. One can’t just look at an impedance spec and assume the transducer requires less power to drive to a certain SPL.

Also consider that better headphones reveal better designed gear so that’s where the ‘scaling’ really comes in to play, even if the better gear has a high power output potential.

You can input the resistance and efficiency of any headphone to check for yourself (this calculator is very easy to use and gives the same numbers as any other headphone power calculator I’ve seen):

http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

 

[davidmolliere]

Warning: Long post ahead... apologies.
(...)
Remember, output power is Voltage * Current = Watts. The Campfire Audio Vega (17.5 Ohm, 102dB SPL/mW) needs 1.05Vrms / 60mA / 63mW to reach 120dB. Because of the lower resistance of the Vega it needs more Current to drive than the i4 (35 Ohms, 105dB SPL/mW). So, ironically, the Vega needs around twice as much output power than the i4 (1.05Vrms / 30mA / 31.5mW) to reach 120dB SPL. One can’t just look at an impedance spec and assume the transducer requires less power to drive to a certain SPL. Also consider that better headphones reveal better designed gear so that’s where the ‘scaling’ really comes in to play, even if the better gear has a high power output potential. You can input the resistance and efficiency of any headphone to check for yourself (this calculator is very easy to use and gives the same numbers as any other calculator I’ve seen)
http://www.digizoid.com/headphones-power.html

Thanks, very educative

 

[Jalo]

@Relic, very good post that reveals the complexities of what constitutes volume of sound. And add to what you have discussed there is the amp design like class A, class B, class AB etc. for instance with class A design, the power output is always at maximum level, the volume pot only controls the recording level making recording level more critical than other designs.

 

[kubig123]

Hi, recently got my LCDi4 with the cipher v2 cable. My previous gear was the isine 20 with cipher v1.
I’m still not able to get the right signature from the new set. Can someone please share some recommended Audeze iOS HQ EQ settings ?
Tried to search the thread but did not find it.

Thx
Roy

I bump a little the lower end

 

[KMann]

Hi, recently got my LCDi4 with the cipher v2 cable. My previous gear was the isine 20 with cipher v1.
I’m still not able to get the right signature from the new set. Can someone please share some recommended Audeze iOS HQ EQ settings ?
Tried to search the thread but did not find it.

Thx
Roy

Could you please make sure the firmware on your Cipher cable is up to date and it says LCD-i4? there was a batch sometime back that was shipped with the wrong firmware.

 

[roymor]

Could you please make sure the firmware on your Cipher cable is up to date and it says LCD-i4? there was a batch sometime back that was shipped with the wrong firmware.

Yes, it is confirmed to be the LCD-i4 version 7.1.5.

 

[jlbrach]

I have the I4 and the Utopia...i listen to both through my chord dave at pretty much the same volume level where as the LCD-4 requires far more volume.....-28 to -22 on both utopia and i4.......-20 to minus 5 for LCD-4

 

[tmarshl]

SpinFit CP 155

So I just received pairs SpinFit CP 155 (for 5.5mm nozzle) in medium and small, and tried them with my LCD i4s. I was very disappointed, as the sound stage appears much smaller and the sound just weaker. This may be the result of the opening at the tips being smaller than the nozzles of the i4s. Perhaps I have not installed them properly?

I went back to the "Groovy" tips supplied by Audeze, and the great sound returned. YMMV

 

[Jalo]

I have the I4 and the Utopia...i listen to both through my chord dave at pretty much the same volume level where as the LCD-4 requires far more volume.....-28 to -22 on both utopia and i4.......-20 to minus 5 for LCD-4

Thanks for sharing, this matches my experience with my Utopia and i4.

 

[kubig123]

SpinFit CP 155

So I just received pairs SpinFit CP 155 (for 5.5mm nozzle) in medium and small, and tried them with my LCD i4s. I was very disappointed, as the sound stage appears much smaller and the sound just weaker. This may be the result of the opening at the tips being smaller than the nozzles of the i4s. Perhaps I have not installed them properly?

I went back to the "Groovy" tips supplied by Audeze, and the great sound returned. YMMV

Same here.

I tried the same tips on my ME.1 and I agree that the reduce the soundstage compared to the groovy tips I was using before.

I have not tried them yet on the i4, but I’ll do it next week.

 

[x RELIC x]

@Relic, very good post that reveals the complexities of what constitutes volume of sound. And add to what you have discussed there is the amp design like class A, class B, class AB etc. for instance with class A design, the power output is always at maximum level, the volume pot only controls the recording level making recording level more critical than other designs.

Yup, amp design complexities are numerous and I wouldn’t want to bog down the i4 thread with them, or even prentend to be an expert on the topic. However, class A amplification doesn’t mean always maximum output, it means always conducting (power running through the system at the ready) even when the power output is zero. They are incredibly inefficient due to this design (typically around 15-35% efficiency) and dissipate the energy as heat, but can have great distortion characteristics, hum characteristics, push/pull performance, etc., but the power supply needs special attention for noise. The only way to control the volume of the actual recording’s level is in digital realm before it reaches the amplification stage. You can not seperate out the recording level from the power output in an amplifier circuit. This is what Chord DACs do, they adjust volume digitally and then amplify it in a single Class A analogue stage (vs 3-4 stages - I/V conversion, Filter, Buffer, Gain - in most other amps) to get very good measured performance.

An example of another different approach is the Questyle QP2R which has an incredibly low power output spec and many people drive full size headphones satisfactorily with the Current Mode amplification design in the DAP.

This is why I feel that for TOTL transducers like the i4 the actual ‘scaling with better gear’ has a lot less to do with the headphone characteristics changing with different sources (they always have the same potential to sound great), but rather it’s their ability to reveal the quality of the source. A headphone that has poor distortion and poor frequency response balance will not be as transparent to the source and therefore better source gear can not be revealed as such. The i4 has no problem in this regard, IMO.

Edit: it’s not @Relic, but @x RELIC x