Audeze LCD-5 Review, Measurements, Interview
Oct 16, 2021 at 8:06 PM Post #1,696 of 6,820
My burson soloist 3x lacks low end on my LCD5 compared to a few other headphone amps I've tried. Is that because of lack of current ratings or is something up with my burson soloist 🤔

Looking into picking up a gx mini or a soloist GT
 
Oct 16, 2021 at 9:43 PM Post #1,697 of 6,820
@KMann your contributions and info is hugely appreciated

i had a query about where you wrote ..
While we have followed the research with great interest, our intent in tuning our headphones has not changed much, we want music to reproduced as is (flat, or equally loud across the frequency spectrum) and not intentionally color it to suit a target curve. Of course, there are limitations to how we can achieve this without compromising on other equally important qualities such as distortion, transparency, dynamics, soundstage etc but we keep working on pushing these boundaries.
i would not have described the lcd4 as uncoloured or flat and felt the mids or upper mids to be recessed.

what have i missed in the description of your post or the lcd4 when you say you want the music to be reproduced flat?
i assume you mean in what the user hears and not the non compensated frequency graph

thanks
 
Oct 16, 2021 at 10:17 PM Post #1,698 of 6,820
I was listening in on the live stream too :) thanks for doing it.

It is not a question of the preference score can be manipulated in some way by cancelling out deviations in on part of the spectrum with others. The underlying issue is much more basic than that. The preference score assumes, a measured deviation for a headphone is close to the subjective deviation, what is the margin of error across headphones in how they deviate from a target on a given measurement rig from subjective/perceived differences? This cannot be evaluated using a single headphone that just mimics other headphones (https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16874) like most of the Harman studies do. More studies like those conducted by Christensen, Anders (https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16877) are needed. Where a set of headphones of different types were measured on a measurement rig and on real human heads at the ear drum and the EQ to a target curve based on a measurement rig were compared to EQ made from real heads. If EQ based on a measurement rig to a target curve are to be trusted, the study should have shown it would not matter if it is based on real heads or a measurement rig. While I do not say the study is complete since current measurement rigs have advanced, the study concluded:
Very valuable input, the issues with Harman Research are indeed far more basic than manipulation of preference scores.

@kmmbd
 
Oct 16, 2021 at 11:28 PM Post #1,699 of 6,820
Often time in research, newer work is based on or builds on older work and sometimes some important limitations and assumptions are not repeated, glossed over or worse just forgotten. Now that so many consumers and reviewers use the research conducted by Harman Institute, I wish there is more talk that explains the limitations instead of just taking the work as gospel and basing headphone purchases on graphs, or worse reviewers just describing tonal response as they see on the graph with respect to a preference curve/target curve which can be misleading to the audience.

All of the research that lead to the Preferred Headphone Target curves was based on using virtual headphones. I.e, the real headphone such as a Audeze LCD-4 was not used, instead the response of the headphones was first measured using a modified 54CA, then the frequency and phase mimicked using a headphone such as HD518. Then the preferred response was arrived at by using a single headphone to mimic (i.e., eqd) all other headphones.

  1. Now ask yourself, why spend any money on headphone gear when you can just buy one single headphone and just EQ it to the target, because that is what the study did and the listener preference was based on the virtual headphone.
  2. The study assumes if a listener likes or dislikes a virtualized form of the headphone they will equally like or dislike the original headphone being virtualized. They did try to validate if this was true, but guess what, LCD2 was used in this study and LCD2 was virtualized worst! i.e listener preference of virtualized LCD2 did not correlate to the original LCD2. One would think this is a possible red flag. An AKG that was ranked second in this study behind LCD2 before virtualization, now became ranked 1 after virtualization.
  3. The study also assumes a preference curve developed using a specific virtual headphone such HD518 or Hd800, would be the same if a different headphone (say LCD-4) were used. I do not think there were studies conducted with listeners to try and determine the variability of a preference curve when different headphones are used. If a different headphone that does well in bass were used, or if the headphone were more transparent or resolved better, it would have affected how the listeners choose to change the response.
  4. The target curve was arrived by letting the listener choose between different target curves that were generally smooth, the listeners were not given fine control over what the can tune except for a bass or treble shelf. Those who EQ know that that is just not enough, yes you can make a headphone sound a bit better but given the variability of how headphones measure on a rig, using a nice smooth curve as a target will not produce optimal results. So at best, they should be treated as suggestions.

This is not meant as a criticism of the work done by the Harman Institute. I think the intent in trying to objectively evaluate headphones is a good one, and helps educate both the customers and helps manufacturers understand the customer preference better. However, it is equally important to understand the limitations of the research. A pragmatic approach over a dogmatic approach is better here.

While we have followed the research with great interest, our intent in tuning our headphones has not changed much, we want music to reproduced as is (flat, or equally loud across the frequency spectrum) and not intentionally color it to suit a target curve. Of course, there are limitations to how we can achieve this without compromising on other equally important qualities such as distortion, transparency, dynamics, soundstage etc but we keep working on pushing these boundaries.
Some of the interesting things I read from Sean Olive’s research leading to the famous Harmon Curve are two factors which significantly affected people’s perception of their headphones in Harmon’s tests: leakage and position. Small changes in where the headphones were placed on the head yielded larger changes in the perceived likability/accuracy of the frequency response and similar effects were found when there were small leakages in the seal between headphone and head. I wonder if there is a tradeoff between comfort and leakage. Untested but I wonder how comfort and consistency of placement on the head are related.
I totally didn't mean to open up a brand new can of worms on a topic already beat to death in this forum!

I was trying to make this point:

The research done with the Harman study group mentioned how headphone placement on the head impacted the participants subjective experience, and the level of that impact would vary headphone to headphone.

Therefore, my question/speculation, based off of previous statements from audeze, was that the design of the ear cups and force of the headband is to reduce variance of the LCD-5 sound profile every time a listener puts them on.

Would this be an accurate statement, and an explanation why the force of the headband is engineered as it is, and not as loose as other headphones such as the Susvara?
 
Oct 16, 2021 at 11:35 PM Post #1,700 of 6,820
My burson soloist 3x lacks low end on my LCD5 compared to a few other headphone amps I've tried. Is that because of lack of current ratings or is something up with my burson soloist 🤔

Looking into picking up a gx mini or a soloist GT
What other amps have you tried? Can you describe what you mean by the burson lacking low end (was it lacking sub bass, was it not punching as hard in the kick drums, was the bass blooming more?), and can you describe your methodology for determining this (SPL matching at certain frequency, or just judging by ear)?
 
Oct 17, 2021 at 12:04 AM Post #1,702 of 6,820
Therefore, my question/speculation, based off of previous statements from audeze, was that the design of the ear cups and force of the headband is to reduce variance of the LCD-5 sound profile every time a listener puts them on.

Would this be an accurate statement, and an explanation why the force of the headband is engineered as it is, and not as loose as other headphones such as the Susvara?
Historically our headphones have achieved good bass response both due to well damped and well controlled driver and also a good seal. The plush earpads along with a good clamping force has always been part of our design and is not new (in LCD5), but because the LCD-5's ear pads are a departure from our previous designs, the area that is directly in contact with the head is less, this leads to a feeling of increased pressure/clamping. We realize, one size fits all would not help us achieve both the seal we want and remain comfortable, which is why as I have mentioned earlier, we are working on making a headband with less clamping force available.

i would not have described the lcd4 as uncoloured or flat and felt the mids or upper mids to be recessed.

what have i missed in the description of your post or the lcd4 when you say you want the music to be reproduced flat?
i assume you mean in what the user hears and not the non compensated frequency graph
Yes I meant what the user hears. I was describing our design goals, I also mention in the next line that we have to work within the constraints and keep improving what is possible as no headphone is perfect and it is about choosing the right set of compromises. Regarding LCD-4's tonality: more here. We understand there is room for improvement, hence the release of LCD-5 and CRBN.
 
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Oct 17, 2021 at 12:41 AM Post #1,703 of 6,820
Yes I meant what the user hears. I was describing our design goals, I also mention in the next line that we have to work within the constraints and keep improving what is possible as no headphone is perfect and it is about choosing the right set of compromises. Regarding LCD-4's tonality: more here. We understand there is room for improvement, hence the release of LCD-5 and CRBN.
Thanks for the reply

that’s interesting as the lcd4 has many fans and owners yet it’s still seen by audeze as a balance of compromises re its engineering and offering (like all headphones no doubt would be)

So with the carbon and lcd5 is audeze heading into a new direction re their house sound in audiophile land compared to where you were with the lcd 4 and 3, and maybe the lcd4z and lcdmx4 was the beginning of that shift?

ps the story of the carbons origins and what you were bringing to/developing for the medical field i thought is fantastic and quite honourable
 
Oct 17, 2021 at 12:50 AM Post #1,704 of 6,820
My burson soloist 3x lacks low end on my LCD5 compared to a few other headphone amps I've tried. Is that because of lack of current ratings or is something up with my burson soloist 🤔

Looking into picking up a gx mini or a soloist GT
Have you thought of rolling OpAmps in the Soloist? Are you using the V6 Vivids?
Cheers! :beerchug:
-HK sends
 
Oct 17, 2021 at 1:03 AM Post #1,705 of 6,820
Folks,

Not that I'm grousing, but there are some intense Harmon Curve and LCD-5 Measurement discussions currently on this thread. Obviously, some of you are very versed in the Audio Engineering field. However, for those of us who are not and just want to share impressions, future comfort updates, and grouse about waiting times beyond anyone's control, may I respectfully request that you create a LCD-5 measurements related thread in the Audio Science Forum. Meaning no disrespect, but your posts are getting longer and more detailed and are also getting more distracting for most of the rest of us.

I may have had some experience in these matters in the past...thus my request.
Cheers and All the Best! :beerchug:
-HK sends
 
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Oct 17, 2021 at 1:23 AM Post #1,706 of 6,820
So with the carbon and lcd5 is audeze heading into a new direction re their house sound in audiophile land compared to where you were with the lcd 4 and 3, and maybe the lcd4z and lcdmx4 was the beginning of that shift?
We try to design our headphones to sound flat but depending on the formfactor, we achieve this to varying degrees, though there are some common traits of all our drivers. The 'house' sound most associate with are that of the full sized circumaural open LCD series. All of them have one aspect in common ,the very similar earpad design that give them the characteristic sound. The earpads were optimized for the LCD series.

While we continued to reduce weight (LCD-4Z, LCD-MX4), we had already started the research (multiple parallel paths) for the next generation of headphones. Based on feedback, we knew shedding just a few grams was not enough, while many including us are happy with the tonality, we understood that clarity, more energy in the upper mids were also preferred (and would get us even closer to a flat response), we knew we have to change the earpads to achieve that. Our design goals have not changed much, we just had to hit the reset button. We still did not want to compromise on other aspects of the design such as good bass, low distortion, transparency etc.

Through CRBN (300g) and LCD5(420g), using very different technologies and very different construction including earpads, we have tuned them to have very similar tonality and we think they are better than our previous best and we hope to continue doing the same in the future.
 
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Oct 17, 2021 at 2:48 AM Post #1,707 of 6,820
My burson soloist 3x lacks low end on my LCD5 compared to a few other headphone amps I've tried. Is that because of lack of current ratings or is something up with my burson soloist 🤔

Looking into picking up a gx mini or a soloist GT
Silly question but I thought to ask to be safe, did you use a balanced headphone XLR connection with your Soloist? I have both on hand so I will try the combo tomorrow at some point but if memory serves me correctly you should have more current delivery from the Soloist via XLR, and current delivery I believe is what you may be referring to your LCD5 needing. Just a thougt.
 
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Oct 17, 2021 at 4:02 AM Post #1,708 of 6,820
This isn't specific to Audeze only, but there are alternatives which incorporates a balance for all parties involved to offset "capital outlay" and a better customer experience:
The thing with any supposed solution to such problems is that they require time and effort to set up, and keep track of, as well as extra staff to manage. That introduces other potential problems too, and more things for people to complain about. Selling the headphones in a regular manner is simpler.

I don't know if the earpads and band have broken in or I have become accustomed to the clamp force, but I now find the LCD-5 more comfortable than I did at first. I can wear them for longer sessions with less fatigue than I could with my LCD-R's. My only gripe is wiping the earpads after use isn't as quick and easy due to the inward curved cups.
I'm finding that the clamp doesn't bother me as much as it did at first. I imagine once the pads soften up a bit that they'll be more comfortable. I've noticed that the clamping force on the new headband seems to increase the more they are stretched out. Compare that to the more even force vs. width of the Susvaras.
 
Oct 17, 2021 at 4:36 AM Post #1,709 of 6,820
We try to design our headphones to sound flat but depending on the formfactor, we achieve this to varying degrees, though there are some common traits of all our drivers. The 'house' sound most associate with are that of the full sized circumaural open LCD series. All of them have one aspect in common ,the very similar earpad design that give them the characteristic sound. The earpads were optimized for the LCD series.

While we continued to reduce weight (LCD-4Z, LCD-MX4), we had already started the research (multiple parallel paths) for the next generation of headphones. Based on feedback, we knew shedding just a few grams was not enough, while many including us are happy with the tonality, we understood that clarity, more energy in the upper mids were also preferred (and would get us even closer to a flat response), we knew we have to change the earpads to achieve that. Our design goals have not changed much, we just had to hit the reset button. We still did not want to compromise on other aspects of the design such as good bass, low distortion, transparency etc.

Through CRBN (300g) and LCD5(420g), using very different technologies and very different construction including earpads, we have tuned them to have very similar tonality and we think they are better than our previous best and we hope to continue doing the same in the future.
Thanks for taking the time to reply and sharing this info
 
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