[grokit]

Quote:

Interesting - what are you using for an amp?  I have not found that to be my observation of them.  I do find them very resolving and certainly revealing of detail, but I haven't particularly found them to be as unforgiving as you seem to find them with poorly recorded music. I have not liked that kind of quality in components that I'd describe as ruthlessly revealing.  The Benchmark DAC 1 is a good example - I find that DAC virtually unlistenable, while  many others love it.  It is unforgiving on badly recorded music, to be sure, and I also find it to be strident in the upper end.  The end result is what I would term hyper-detailed presentation that really grates on me.  That is not how I perceive the LCD-2's - they have a greater ease and naturalness to their presentation and the shelving down of the highs really does help with a potentially fatiguing element for me personally, though sometimes I do miss a certain sparkle to the highs with some familiar recordings. 

 
That's why (in my mind) something the Benchmark might make a good match for the LCD-2's. I like to combine components with offsetting strengths together, as an example a tube DAC with a solid state amp (or vice versa).

 

[ctemkin]

Pale Rider,
 
I have been using the RSA Apache with the LCD-2s without ever experiencing anything like what you describe.  I have never had any clipping.  I would not think that your amp is the source of the problem unless yours is not working properly.  While the input could be overloaded, I would think that you would hear that using other phones as well, and I assume you don't.

 

[AtomikPi]

 
Quote:

 
Not following you.  Could you restate your statement please?

 
I was saying that if a headphone's impedance varies by frequency, then a high output impedance amp can affect frequency balance. For example, here's one for the HD800 - which many people prefer with output impedance adapters to add bass.
 

 

[ninjikiran]

Its not necessarily unforgiving but songs lacking in Dynamic Range are not at all lively(unless the intended result).  To me unforgiving  is making a terrible recording nigh unlistenable(like high pitch sibilant notes or extremely dark).
 
Songs with no depth, no soul due to terrible mastering or over compression are to me terrible. 
 
Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the song still   As for amp using a Meier Concerto.
 
Quote:

Interesting - what are you using for an amp?  I have not found that to be my observation of them.  I do find them very resolving and certainly revealing of detail, but I haven't particularly found them to be as unforgiving as you seem to find them with poorly recorded music. I have not liked that kind of quality in components that I'd describe as ruthlessly revealing.  The Benchmark DAC 1 is a good example - I find that DAC virtually unlistenable, while  many others love it.  It is unforgiving on badly recorded music, to be sure, and I also find it to be strident in the upper end.  The end result is what I would term hyper-detailed presentation that really grates on me.  That is not how I perceive the LCD-2's - they have a greater ease and naturalness to their presentation and the shelving down of the highs really does help with a potentially fatiguing element for me personally, though sometimes I do miss a certain sparkle to the highs with some familiar recordings. 
 

 

 

[jax]

Quote:

Quote:
 
That's why (in my mind) something the Benchmark might make a good match for the LCD-2's. I like to combine components with offsetting strengths together, as an example a tube DAC with a solid state amp (or vice versa).

 
Well, I can't speak for how the Benchmark works with LCD-2's, or any headphones for that matter.  I tried two different versions of it, quite extensively in several different speaker systems I am intimately familiar with (four were my own and two were a close friends).  Some of those systems were what I'd call quite forgiving.  I could not stand that DAC in any one of those systems.  To be fair, I have heard it implemented in at least one system at a show where I thought it sounded quite good (go figure), but I'm not going to give it another chance at this point - I just don't think the presentations suits my preferences, and I've found DACs I'm very happy with.  I had the early version of the DAC1 for about two weeks (well broken in already), and a newer USB version for almost a month a few years later with different components in place in my home and office systems.  I had very similar responses to each of them, but thought the second was a minor improvement over the first.  I'm sure that what you have in mind might work in some cases, but don't think it's necessarily a rule.  There are other aspects of synergy that obviously could come into play.  Clearly personal preferences are always at play as we see here every day.  As far as LCD-2's - I've always listened to them with what I'd classify as more musical DACs that emphasize a more natural presentation (perhaps with a touch of 'warmth' as some might observe) over what occurs to me as a more sterile, precise, and perhaps neutral presentation. Of those I'm familiar with I'd put the Benchmark squarely in that realm, as a contrast I'd put the Audio GD Ref 8 in the former...other examples I've enjoyed have been MHDT Paradisea+ and Havana (more neutral than Paradisea), PS Audio DLIII, Muse (various models I've owned and tried all occur to me as more natural).  I've never heard them with what I'd call a really "neutral" DAC because I tend not to like that sound (the REF8 is probably the closest to neutral that I've had them with - haven't had them all that long).  Anyway, perhaps it could be worth a try, as you suggest.  It strikes me as similar to the suggestion of compensating for the shelved down high frequency response by using a cable that allegedly attenuates that part of the spectrum

.     
 
 

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

I was saying that if a headphone's impedance varies by frequency, then a high output impedance amp can affect frequency balance. For example, here's one for the HD800 - which many people prefer with output impedance adapters to add bass.
 

What would you expect to happen if this can were driven by a very low damping factor amplifier?

 

[AtomikPi]

 
Quote:

What would you expect to happen if this can were driven by a very low damping factor amplifier?

In my understanding - and I know little about EE type stuff, I'm just repeating what I've read - having a high output impedance amplifier would amplify the low frequencies around that 100hz hump. Feel free to correct me if you have a better explanation.
 

 

[grokit]

 
Quote:

 
Well, I can't speak for how the Benchmark works with LCD-2's, or any headphones for that matter.  I tried two different versions of it, quite extensively in several different speaker systems I am intimately familiar with (four were my own and two were a close friends).  Some of those systems were what I'd call quite forgiving.  I could not stand that DAC in any one of those systems.  To be fair, I have heard it implemented in at least one system at a show where I thought it sounded quite good (go figure), but I'm not going to give it another chance at this point - I just don't think the presentations suits my preferences, and I've found DACs I'm very happy with.  I had the early version of the DAC1 for about two weeks (well broken in already), and a newer USB version for almost a month a few years later with different components in place in my home and office systems.  I had very similar responses to each of them, but thought the second was a minor improvement over the first.  I'm sure that what you have in mind might work in some cases, but don't think it's necessarily a rule.  There are other aspects of synergy that obviously could come into play.  Clearly personal preferences are always at play as we see here every day.  As far as LCD-2's - I've always listened to them with what I'd classify as more musical DACs that emphasize a more natural presentation (perhaps with a touch of 'warmth' as some might observe) over what occurs to me as a more sterile, precise, and perhaps neutral presentation. Of those I'm familiar with I'd put the Benchmark squarely in that realm, as a contrast I'd put the Audio GD Ref 8 in the former...other examples I've enjoyed have been MHDT Paradisea+ and Havana (more neutral than Paradisea), PS Audio DLIII, Muse (various models I've owned and tried all occur to me as more natural).  I've never heard them with what I'd call a really "neutral" DAC because I tend not to like that sound (the REF8 is probably the closest to neutral that I've had them with - haven't had them all that long).  Anyway, perhaps it could be worth a try, as you suggest.  It strikes me as similar to the suggestion of compensating for the shelved down high frequency response by using a cable that allegedly attenuates that part of the spectrum

.     

I wonder if when you liked it at that show the Benchmark was run through a tubestage buffer, that might give it some of the warmth that appeals to you and would be another example of what I am suggesting. I am about to try a tube buffer with my Devilsound cable to see if I like how it affects the sound.

 

[kwkarth]

Quote:

In my understanding - and I know little about EE type stuff, I'm just repeating what I've read - having a high output impedance amplifier would amplify the low frequencies around that 100hz hump. Feel free to correct me if you have a better explanation.

First of all, the rise in impedance that we see around 100Hz, is caused by resonance in the HD800 system.  So currently, with a low impedance amp, the transfer of energy around 100Hz would be lessened due to the impedance mismatch.  In the case of the HD800, this is a good thing.  Since the system resonates around 100Hz we actually want to reduce the amplifier power to the HD800 around those frequencies to even out the response of the HD800 system.  As I recall, the actual measured FR of the HD800 looks something like this:

As we can see, the can doesn't need any help at 100Hz, but it would be helpful if we could actually cut (broad/low Q) around 100 Hz-200 Hz by about 5dB and again, cut 6.3kHz by about 5dB, and we would be in good shape with regard to FR.  Using a high impedance amp would not serve our purpose, and would probably work against us, making things worse than they already are.
 

 

[jax]

Quote:

 

I wonder if when you liked it at that show the Benchmark was run through a tubestage buffer, that might give it some of the warmth that appeals to you and would be another example of what I am suggesting. I am about to try a tube buffer with my Devilsound cable to see if I like how it affects the sound.

No tube buffer.  Mac>Benchmark>amp>speaker.  If you give me long enough I can probably look up what system it was.  I believe it was RMAF 2007.  I'll see if I can figure it out, but definitely no tube buffer involved.
 

 

[grokit]

If it was a tube amp the same principle could apply depending upon how euphonic the amp is, without the buffer.

 

[AtomikPi]

Quote:

[snip]
 

Thanks for the explanation. So in this case then, using a power amp with a high output impedance might sound "bad" and one might incorrectly attribute the frequency imbalance resulting from impedance problems to a lack of power, and thus opamps.
 

 

[jax]

If it was a tube amp the same principle could apply depending upon how euphonic the amp is, without the buffer.

I'm blanking on the name of the amp/speakers, but I remember it distinctly because the physical design of this guys stuff was by one of my favorite designers, Josh Stippich.  He did not design the circuits though, but the housings for both the amp and the speakers (which looked like little robots).  The owner of the company was showing them (I seem to recall his name was David something), and he was running the Benchmark straight into the amp (I believe it was an integrated and I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that it used tubes). So, no, this is not Electronluv, but another company not owned by Josh.  I remember all this because I was so surprised that the Benchmark sounded that good and I wasn't hearing any of the same stridency I had heard in three different systems with it (this was just after having tried out the early version extensively myself, at home and at my friend's place).  Somewhere I have a notebook that has all the info but I'm winding down after having company this evening so it'll have to wait until the AM.  The system was relatively (by high-end speaker system standards) moderately priced and sounded great - fun and engaging - cut after cut.  Of course it looked great too, since Stippich had a hand in the design (though some really don't like his design - I think it's brilliant).
 
Interesting theory as applied to the LCD-2's to hook it up to a DAC that has upper-frequency emphasis.  Actually, I don't know that that's really the case with the Benchmark, but it's certainly where I heard stridency that I found objectionable.  It also sounded very sterile and just somehow not natural to me.  All of which is in sharp contrast to the LCD-2's presentation (at least in my experience of them), which occur to me as very natural sounding and anything but sterile.  I was really surprised to hear someone at the recent meet at Bottlehead characterize them as "sterile" - I can't recall the gentleman's name (don't think he was a Head-Fi member, but a friend of Dan's), but he did not like them at all having listened to them on several of the rigs there and thought they sounded quite cold and sterile (hope I'm not misquoting him).  It did not surprise me that he disliked them, since everyone has their own preferences, but to hear them described as "sterile" did baffle me.   
 


Edit: Hah! Found the catalogue - the amp was a Studio Electric hybrid using mosfets on the output, through his speakers.

 

[grokit]

It's the cold and clinical aspects of the DAC1 that provide the sharp contrast to the LCD-2's warmth and smoothness, making me think they could complement each other. A tube buffer or tube amp would probably help as well though. I use a less clinical SS balanced DAC, the Mini-i, with some upgrades on the digital side and a balanced euphonic tube amp, it works out pretty well.

 

[h4nc0]

Just got the LCD-2 today.  Been listening for a few hours so far through Prismsound Orpheus and DACPort.  Had HD650 and LCD-2 is definitely in a different league.  I have Geithain RL922K and Adam S3A in my studio, and LCD-2 sounds neutral and translates well.  I don't find the phones dark sounding at all.  Sounds alot more like the Geithains than the Adams. 
 
However, the phones are not comfortable.  Not a deal breaker, but could definitely be better imo.  I did get the travel case and wished I could put the phones in the case without separating the cable.  That's all for now.