Audeze LCD-2 Orthos

[MrGreen]

I'm 21 with good hearing for my age. Regardless, hearing damage typically results in  hyperacousis after a particular period of time, which results in people being sensitive to the range in which they have damage (which is usually in the 2-8k range, most often around 6khz - which is right where the HD800 has a spike) - which typically leads people to AVOID sounds in this register (meaning they would probably seek out darker headphones). Hyperacousis is terrible - for example, you find things like the fridge, or someone chewing to be too loud. I personally have ideopathic hyperacousis (well, they call it ideopathic because it is a ppears acquired rather than related to hearing loss, although I believe it due to surgery I had when I was a child), although thankfully mine is quite minor (it's mostly ~70+ dB that I find very irritating). I've always taken issue with the "hearing damage"  argument (which typically comes from the fans of dark headphones) because it's based on an incorrect logic; hearing damage affects every sound in a particular range (well, the most common types of sound). It's going to change the balance of the "real thing", just as it's going to change the perceived balance of headphones. Theoretically, your preferences will not change - or rather, should revert to normal unless your preferences were the result of an extended period with a particular sound signature (in which case I'd argue you'll probably stay with that headphone anyway). Anyone seeking "the real thing" won't be affected by hearing loss - beacuse your new hearing IS the real thing.
 
There's also a huge, unecessary stigma on this forum about getting old with a clear misunderstanding of what frequencies are important. Sure, harmonics are going to differentiate two notes played by the same flute player at the same volume from one another - if you are unable to hear them - which you usually can at most octaves - it's not going to sound "bad" by any stretch. The audibility of these differences is also completely questionable, given how "mute" a harmonic is relative to a fundamental unless it is being specifically targeted (through overtone series exercises, for example).
 
Just because someone has a preference that is different than yours does not mean particular members have inferior hearing. As an audiophile with a rather technical background here's a piece of gold for you: your ability to listen is more important than your ability to hear. A legally (and profoundly) deaf person who goes to a concert to hear the thud of bass probably has THE MOST FUN out of everyone at the concert - because they rarely get that sensation. Furthermore, that single person, even if they can only hear a kick drum, has every right to seek out the highest quality kick drum the like. Our more seasoned members, probably rank amongst the best listeners - because they've probably been in the game the longest, regardless of their hearing.


Being an audiophile isn't about having the highest quality hearing - or even the highest quality sound. It's about enjoying and appreciating the gift of sound.

 

[wuwhere]

As far as hearing goes, don't the designers of audio equipment have their preferences? And as such, they ultimately decide how their equipment would sound?

 

[MrGreen]

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As far as hearing goes, don't the designers of audio equipment have their preferences? And as such, they ultimately decide how their equipment would sound?

Obviously. There's a few criterion which are considered unavoidable, however, such as headphones requiring more treble than bass to sound... 'balanced'

 

[jermng]

I like the LCD-2s treble - definitely not too much - sometimes I even think it can be turned down even more ...  

 

[Danz03]

Sorry but I'm not really an audiophile, I prefer to listen to 'music' rather than how I can improve the listening experience. I prefer to listen to music that's closest to what the producers or sound engineers intend them to be heard and that's why I like the LCD-2s as they are very close to the sound of a pair of reference monitors.
For people who cannot hear much high frequencies due to old age, like my grandmother, she is not bothered by high frequency sound, in fact she couldn't even hear my phone's ring tone, but play some bass heavy music and she'd be complaining right away and she's certainly not bothered by the treble spike of the HD800s. I do not have a problem with people having a different preference to me at all but claiming the HD800s as neutral or accurate sounding is wrong because they are not. 
BTW, do you have a life apart from hanging around these forum? 

 

[MrGreen]

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Sorry but I'm not really an audiophile, I prefer to listen to 'music' rather than how I can improve the listening experience.

That's what an audiophile is
 
 
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BTW, do you have a life apart from hanging around these forum? 

 
Just because I post frequently does not mean I spend a large amount of time on the forums. I, like I would assume many members do, post while listening casually.

 

[jamato8]

It sounded like "if the shoe fits" question to me. :^)
 
Good comments above, Mr. Green. Seems to make sense though there are always variables. What, no citations? Interesting hobby this is. I met and made friends with a guy that knew and even traveled with Janis Joplin, the Grateful Dead and few others, with many images to back it up, because of my then, fairly new interest in the GD. He recently sent me 1tb of lossless music so I wouldn't get bored on this island. 

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

I'm 21 with good hearing for my age. Regardless, hearing damage typically results in  hyperacousis after a particular period of time, which results in people being sensitive to the range in which they have damage (which is usually in the 2-8k range, most often around 6khz - which is right where the HD800 has a spike) - which typically leads people to AVOID sounds in this register (meaning they would probably seek out darker headphones). Hyperacousis is terrible - for example, you find things like the fridge, or someone chewing to be too loud. I personally have ideopathic hyperacousis (well, they call it ideopathic because it is a ppears acquired rather than related to hearing loss, although I believe it due to surgery I had when I was a child), although thankfully mine is quite minor (it's mostly ~70+ dB that I find very irritating). I've always taken issue with the "hearing damage"  argument (which typically comes from the fans of dark headphones) because it's based on an incorrect logic; hearing damage affects every sound in a particular range (well, the most common types of sound). It's going to change the balance of the "real thing", just as it's going to change the perceived balance of headphones. Theoretically, your preferences will not change - or rather, should revert to normal unless your preferences were the result of an extended period with a particular sound signature (in which case I'd argue you'll probably stay with that headphone anyway). Anyone seeking "the real thing" won't be affected by hearing loss - beacuse your new hearing IS the real thing.
 
There's also a huge, unecessary stigma on this forum about getting old with a clear misunderstanding of what frequencies are important. Sure, harmonics are going to differentiate two notes played by the same flute player at the same volume from one another - if you are unable to hear them - which you usually can at most octaves - it's not going to sound "bad" by any stretch. The audibility of these differences is also completely questionable, given how "mute" a harmonic is relative to a fundamental unless it is being specifically targeted (through overtone series exercises, for example).
 
Just because someone has a preference that is different than yours does not mean particular members have inferior hearing. As an audiophile with a rather technical background here's a piece of gold for you: your ability to listen is more important than your ability to hear. A legally (and profoundly) deaf person who goes to a concert to hear the thud of bass probably has THE MOST FUN out of everyone at the concert - because they rarely get that sensation. Furthermore, that single person, even if they can only hear a kick drum, has every right to seek out the highest quality kick drum the like. Our more seasoned members, probably rank amongst the best listeners - because they've probably been in the game the longest, regardless of their hearing.


Being an audiophile isn't about having the highest quality hearing - or even the highest quality sound. It's about enjoying and appreciating the gift of sound.

Sounds reasonable to me.  After spending a month with the HD800 using them all the time...I stopped listening to headphones altogether for a good two weeks as that treble spike eventually made the thought of listening to any headphone sickening...I was so afraid that the HD800 would destroy my hearing.  I do believe my hearing has been compromised ever since I got into headphones a couple of years ago with the HD650...I don't even listen to headphones maybe more than twice a week for a couple of hours in total (I may go a week constant and many weeks without). 
 
I'm happy to accept that it is I with the hearing damage and I seek out darker cans.  That people who prefer brighter cans have the more correct hearing...but I do not accept that I suffer from "hyperacousis" as daily sounds never trouble me whatsoever one bit nothing.  Still doesn't change my opinion...that the LCD2 gives me a deeper picture into a given recording, DAC or audio circuit than the HD800s do...I'm happy to accept that my hearing has been trashed, perhaps I should get it checked...but I'm quite happy with myself, hearing damage or not...I don't see the point in finding out I do have hearing damage.  At least its not as bad as the very elderly that always asks "What was that?" everytime you speak to them.
 
I'm not so sure others that prefer gentler trebles will be so ready to accept your theory though.  I am happy to admit I was a typical teenager that hit the clubs all the time...cranked the car stereo...crank up the headphones....come think of it...I still do all these things and probably will continue to.

 

[MrGreen]

 
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I don't even listen to headphones maybe more than twice a week for a couple of hours in total (I may go a week constant and many weeks without).

You should buy an A-weighted SPL meter if you're worried about your hearing. Only sounds above 85dB will cause hearing damage. Considering the LCD-2 has a very large treble roll-off (in real terms), the method I use might be a bit odd, but maybe 75dB and you can listen as much as you want without problems (although personally I'd still limit it to 2 albums a day).
 
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I'm happy to accept that it is I with the hearing damage and I seek out darker cans.  That people who prefer brighter cans have the more correct hearing...but I do not accept that I suffer from "hyperacousis" as daily sounds never trouble me whatsoever one bit nothing.

 
I don't think anyone here has a particular preference because of the state of their hearing. If someone has hearing damage, I don't think theyre going to go look for very bright headphones. Their brain will adapt (by the way this is why, if you've ever had 6 seconds of tinnitus (due to contractions in the ear - unrelated to hearing damage), you feel a little woozy for a second because the inner ear controls balance)), and their preferences will stay the same because the real thing has changed. I mean, in extreme situations where someone has very bad hearing in the midrange - "the real thing" might be less than desirable and someone may seek out a headphone with a very pronounced midrange. Most hearing loss (even by old age) has far less impact that that. I think most people just find a can they like because it's just what they prefer or maybe even what is "closer to real life" for them based on their HRTF.
 
If you do not find yourself extremely agitated at every day sounds, then I'd say your hearing is probably fine anyway.
 
 
IMO there are things more important than frequency response - namely, for myself - dryness and cohesiveness. The LCD-2 does okay at these, but not well enough to warrant a sale in light of the FR.
 
The issue further with the "corrective" stance to the ears- although I have tried EQing out my ears with some interesting results - is that it goes by the assumption that the "actual sound" is ideal for a particular person. Many people treat headphones like instruments - which is no error, they can do it - in order to make sound even more euphonious than a truly accurate reproduction (typically with a bass and mids boost IMO)
 
Anyway my 2c.

 

[vrln]

Interesting theory... I haven´t been in many situations that could compromise my hearing, but as a very small child I did have a lot of problems with my ears (unfortunately I don´t know the correct medical terms in english). In real life I´m never really that sensitive to high sounds, except ambulances and police cars really hurt my hearing a lot (most likely more than most people). So while I´m not really ready to agree with you, you might be right. My hearing was tested in middle school after the ear problems and found to be very good though despite all the issues I used to have, but those tests don´t really test sensitivities to high frequencies at all.
 
Whatever it is, treble rolloff makes happy I just tried the HD 800 again today before it´ll be sold next week, and came to the same conclusion. Fantastic headphones, superior to LCD-2 in the extremely important soundstage, but the treble makes me not want to listen to music at all if they were my only cans. One critical problem, without the hot treble I´d rate them on the same level as the LCD-2, with some genres clearly better (and worse on some). Oddly the Genelec studio monitors I have, which are bright, have no such issues for me. 

 

[MrGreen]

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Interesting theory... I haven´t been in many situations that could compromise my hearing, but as a very small child I did have a lot of problems with my ears (unfortunately I don´t know the correct medical terms in english). In real life I´m never really that sensitive to high sounds, except ambulances and police cars really hurt my hearing a lot (most likely more than most people). So while I´m not really ready to agree with you, you might be right. My hearing was tested in middle school after the ear problems and found to be very good though despite all the issues I used to have, but those tests don´t really test sensitivities to high frequencies at all.
 
Whatever it is, treble rolloff makes happy I just tried the HD 800 again today before it´ll be sold next week, and came to the same conclusion. Fantastic headphones, superior to LCD-2 in the extremely important soundstage, but the treble makes me not want to listen to music at all if they were my only cans. One critical problem, without the hot treble I´d rate them on the same level as the LCD-2, with some genres clearly better (and worse on some). Oddly the Genelec studio monitors I have, which are bright, have no such issues for me. 

Eh? I'm sure your hearing is fine. I didn't mean to imply that people who enjoy the LCD-2 have bad hearing - the fact they are here probably means their hearing is fairly decent, or at least they're looking after it. I was merely providing a rebuttal to the above point. I'm far more casual/less agressive than many people think I am for some reason.
 
If you had hyperacousis, you would know (vacuum cleaners, for example, would drive you insane). I doubt many people on this site have it.
 
FWIW I also had problems with my ears when I was a child (but thanks to surgery there we no permanent complications).
 
FWIWx2 I love treble, and frankly the spike at ~6k in the HD800 made it a a no sale. Then again, I'm being picky with gear because funds are sparse. But I recently bought a set I want and I am waiting for Milos to ship it

 

[vrln]

Check active monitors if you like treble, they can do it (in a nearfield setup to minimize room accoustics) in a way that doesn´t have an annoying spike, but also without a rolloff. It´s amazing, but less relaxing to listen to than the LCD-2. Actually the two compliment each other pretty well!
 
Oh and I guess I misunderstood your post then, I didn´t mean to attack your post in any way by the way - actually I was thinking you made the point that people who prefer a rolled off treble instead of the usual dynamic headphone spikes are just sensitive to treble (not to the level of hyperacousis necessarily of course  

 

[SP Wild]

The problem with the HD800 is the treble peaks at about 4-7 khz....very nasty.  The D7000s also have a peaky treble but it seems to occur a little afterwards from 8khz onwards and do not seem as bad...probably the bass helps to draw attention from the treble as well.  Even the K701 is less grating in the treble.  Without that particular treble band peak the HD800s are rather quite laid back...smooth and warm...like the HD650...and every other Senheisser I've heard.  That peak was needed to do its phasing soundstage effect...EQ away and...to me the SS is always just as big...but others will perceive a smaller stage.

 

[pp312]

From your picture I'd have said you were 25 at least. 

 
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I'm 21  

 

[MrGreen]

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From your picture I'd have said you were 25 at least. 

 
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I'm 21  

I'll let you on a secret. I googled mr green and it was one of the results

If it wasn't for my hairline, I'd confidently say I look younger than my age.
 
Another secret, I got the name from the green smiley on headphonic's forums. The tooltip says "mrgreen"