Attn: Foobar2000 users (CROSSFEED plugin headsup)

[MrKazador]

Mixer sounds like it changes the soundstage. Don't know what the first two do...

 

[donunus]

This is the naive software crossfeed's configuration i ended up with which tends to work well with everything I have. The only song that really sounds weird no matter what setting I use is the stereo version of Penny Lane. I can tell that this song, with the sounds on it are probably meant to be mono though because applying the bauer plugin with the c.moy setting(700hz, 6db) give a very nice mono sounding mix with a subtle stereo effect. Of course apply the bauer with that setting to normal studio recordings and the vocals get congested. Try some tracks with some hard pans but were mixed with stereo in mind like Aerosmith's "Walk this Way" and you get a nice effect with the naive at the setting on the picture. Ive also been double checking with lots of other music and I seem to prefer that setting to "no crossfeed" all the time with my current setup. Of Course you have to consider that this tuning is a result of blending in a good compromise of tonality vs crossfeed for my ad900 cans on my setup. The tonality might not be a perfect match for your system and ears.

As for the Bauer setting, it has a nice value for crossfeed at 6 db/700hz(cmoy setting) but tonality is too muffled. It gets less muffled going up to 15db but the crossfeed effect also gets too subtle for all around use at that setting IMO.

I sent a message to naive software asking about the exact effect of each slider on their crossfeed configuration but haven't got a reply yet. After some experimentation I have observed that the bottom slider(mixer level) makes the sound seemingly more muffled when you slide it to the right while adding more of a crossfeed. It seems though that the effect on tonality is more than the effect on the crossfeed. It also has a side effect of adding more gain when the bar is more to the left. The middle slider(shelf gain) seems to make the music have more upper mids/highs when sliding it to the right. I have a feeling this is like a treble setting but the frequencies stop at the frequency specified at the first slider(shelf Cutoff). It is not as pronounced as a standard treble tone control that affects everything though because I feel this only affects the upper mids/treble that bleed into the opposite channel for crossfeeding and not the main signal. What I mean by this is if the signal approaches mono, the effect approaches none since theoretically nothing gets crossfed when they are equal signals in both speakers(mono). I hope my rambling made sense. I will confirm if my explanation is right or wrong about these sliders when I get a reply from naive software. I can't seem to find info anywhere on the internet talking about the configuration of this plugin.

 

[donunus]

Also try Jet's "Get me outta here" and listen to the beginning guitar riff with the naive crossfeed on using my setting then turn it off. Then try it with the bauer and notice the more muffled pan. Playing this song is an example of what it does with any music with hard pans. I also use channel identification tests to hear if the person speaking on the separate channels sound natural while all music is also natural at the same time using the same settings.

 

[donunus]

Now a different state of mind and different tube warmup state, I now prefer the stock setting of naive... Go Figure

The Impressions I wrote above were from yesterday until last nights session while this one is after listening fresh from waking up. The crossfeed is basically just as good using the default settings vs my settings in the above post. The tonality changes from different settings colorations was what I was aiming to get to sound neutral. Now it sounds ever so slightly more neutral to me at default.

 

[leeperry]

yes, stock naive is pretty nice! but there's another plugin w/ tons of settings, can't recall the name. I'll look into it this week-end

 

[donunus]

Leeperry,
do tell us what that other plugin is when you find out what it is... Thanks again for the push to revisit the naive crossfeed. As you can read in the past few posts, playing around with settings has trigerred my obsessive compulsive side

I got a feeling you know what I mean by reading your posts in the big EQ sticky thread hehehe

 

[leeperry]

hehe, no problem

I like to tweak software until the last drop, and I'm still undecided on whether I actuallly "need" crossfeed...what's the point to aim at the best crosstalk specs in RMAA, if it's to ruin it w/ some DSP on top

but the naive adds a subtle delayed <500Hz ghost from the other channel, that might actually help w/ hardpot stuff!

PS: yeah I really dig the naive w/ the 3 lowest settings, it gives a "room" ambience...pretty cool on the Amelie OST! my new soundcard has a very low jitter, which increases the stereo stage depth....and it's utterly fatiguing for my brain on headphones

most mixes are made for speakers, only binaural requires zero crossfeed...at least that's what it sounds like. but OTOH crossfeed w/ a high jitter is very annoying too.

naive makes it pretty clear :

Quote:

To help reduce listening fatigue caused by the unnatural stereo image provided by headphones, Crossfeed processes the left and right channels of stereo audio signals with a filter that mimics the sound absorption characteristics of the human head. After running through this filter, it then mixes a delayed portion of the left and right channels with each other to simulate the delay that occurs when listening to audio signals through stereo speakers positioned approximately 60 degrees apart from each other. The effect is subtle.

 

[donunus]

Just wondering why you like the cutoff( top slider) all the way down to 500hz. Doesnt it only mean that less highs are bled to the opposite channel? 500hz and below instead of 700hz and below using the default setting???

 

[leeperry]

the way I see it, you don't really want the crossfeed DSP to be audible....you simply wanna fool your brain, and allow him to rest...and not constantly try to figure out why he hears one sound on one ear BUT not on the other...on my new soundcard it gave me the feeling to be partly deaf tbh

I'm not even sure you could ABX it(except on full hardpot stuff), but it's a lot less fatiguing to me....and it seems to slightly increase the bass response(considering we're doubling/delaying <500Hz).

 

[leeperry]

humm that naive stuff likes to do occasional crackles when I lower the settings below the default ones

 

[donunus]

It crackles while the changes are being set but not after that... As for the method of comparing the effect, I am not trying to simulate any 3d soundstage here, All I want is to keep hard panned stuff sounding natural and not like the other ear(ear without the signal) is deaf. Then I listen to a test track where a guy walks around a microphone to double check if the tonality stays the same from left ear to center to right as he moves around and theres no 3-blob effect. After that I listen to many random tracks from my library of all genres and check if the sound is more natural than using no crossfeed at all for all music in tonality and soundstage. I don't want a big change in tonality like the dulling effect that the Bauer does. 15db(max) using the Bauer is pretty close to your preferred minimum settings in naive so far as the actual crossfeed effect(how much is bled to the opposite channel) is concerned.

The nice thing about the Naive is that it does exactly what I want right off the bat. The default setting gives a natural voice on the corresponding ear when doing a channel identification test with a voice saying "left channel", "right channel". The bauer has a good crossfeed effect too at the default or c.moy settings but it dulls down the tonality a little too much. moving the slider up to 15db minimizes the dulling of the sound but makes the crossfeed amount very low making it approach no crossfeed at all while still being slightly dull. Basically the tradeoff is equal between the crossfeed benefit and the loss of fidelity as bad side effect on the bauer. Now if you had some headphones that had great synergy with the dulling of the sound it does then youre in luck since you would be killing two birds in one stone by adding crossfeed while getting an automatically correct tonality for the cans with good synergy as a side effect. The Naive changes tonality very little while having a good crossfeed. It actually brightens the sound slightly instead of dulling it making the synergy also nice with my setup

 

[leeperry]

EDIT: indeed default naive is great, makes the music so much more enjoyable

and I think I'm gonna give up on EQ, yes there's 2 spikes at 6.4 and 10KHz...but EQ is too destructive to my taste. they all make the trebles harmonics turn into mush....and yes, I've tried tons of EQ plugins

my brain DSP will take care of these 2 spikes, the hell w/ it!

 

[donunus]

hahahaha really with all those advanced eqs in that thread it still ruins the harmonics? I didn't get into hardcore equalizing like you guys did because I know my obsessive compulsive side too much. crossfeed with cans I love is enough for me

 

[taso89]

I found that the way the Naive crossfeed plug-in adjusted for "human ear absorption" made the soundstage more fatiguing and unpleasant. I think Bauer is better explained and has some science behind it, at stock it sounds a little too mono but at the Cmoy preset it's very pleasant to listen to (and that's the point of crossfeed anyway).

 

[donunus]

Now that depends on what music you are listening to and what cans you are using whether a dulling of the sound is a welcome bonus. Bauer at cmoy settings make stereo beatles for example sound pleasant but listen to alternative rock and the music becomes too dull to enjoy IMO. I would have to turn the slider up to 15db to get decent tonality. Problem with that is you get minimal crossfeed when you do that while tonality still not as good as having no crossfeed at all.