The R-10 has good, but not excellent isolation both in and out.
IMHO the ATH L-3000 for instance has better isolation, but the R-10 certainly beats the L-3000 clearly in terms of sound & musicality, except maybe in the "bass" department for Rock & Pop type music.
Whether the PRICE of an R-10 is justified (assuming values in the 2000-3000 US-Dollar range ?) is an other matter - for me the R-10 is a "collectors & cult item"...with outstanding sound, I admit !!
/me wish someone in his area own an R10, so he could perform an audition.
Their market priced seems to be $4-5000, so definitely not going to by blind...
Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif They are not the only owners that have been disappointed but it comes with the territory. It's easy to be frustrated when you compare your new 8k$ He90 to a 1979 200$ Stax SR-Lambda and the Lambda does most things better, a lot better. The He90 is better but not that much better...
Ive never really been a fan of the oh 7000 dollars is 35x more expensive than a 200 dollar headphone so unless its 35x better then its overpriced way of thinking. Perhaps you aren't exactly putting it in that drastic of a perspective merely "It's not 6800 dollars better." Still, I feel a each heapdhone presents a sound and if that's the sound someone digs and they have the money then why not? Yeah I hardly thought that those two were the only ones disappointed, I'm sure many have been (I was looking at a pretty small time period). But there's I think a line between disappointed vs diappointed enough to sell ;p
I personally have never thought the HE90 wins in any particular category I can pretty much name a headphone that beats it in any one area for sure, but I think the quality of the overall presentation is high. Perhaps it only ranks an 8 in every area but those 8s add up. I have heard a set up that has solidly beaten an he90/hev90 set up (K1000/Zanden) and Ive been told by a good # of people that the SR-Omega sounds similar but with better bass so atm I figure it might also be solidly a better headphone. I have not heard SR-Lambdas so I can't comment on that! Though I definitely bow to your superior knowledge of electrostatic headphones.
Lastly, I wasn't really saying that either the R10 or the HE90 are worth the current going rate per se, but merely that value is relative from person to person and they themselves should decide if these phones are worth it to them after some dedicated listening/comparison.
Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally have never thought the HE90 wins in any particular category I can pretty much name a headphone that beats it in any one area for sure, but I think the quality of the overall presentation is high. Perhaps it only ranks an 8 in every area but those 8s add up. I have heard a set up that has solidly beaten an he90/hev90 set up (K1000/Zanden) and Ive been told by a good # of people that the SR-Omega sounds similar but with better bass so atm I figure it might also be solidly a better headphone. I have not heard SR-Lambdas so I can't comment on that! Though I definitely bow to your superior knowledge of electrostatic headphones.
Lastly, I wasn't really saying that either the R10 or the HE90 are worth the current going rate per se, but merely that value is relative from person to person and they themselves should decide if these phones are worth it to them after some dedicated listening/comparison.
I don't know...I give my HE90+HEV90 a solid 9.0s all the way, if not more. The combo sounds as darn close to perfection for me than anything else, although my R10 and SDS are right there...but just different. There are more of music than just bass impact and quantity for me. People seem to make a big deal when a high caliber headphones have less bass quantity and impact than some lower end models. I rather keep my R10 than keep my beloved L3000. The R10 in a right setup can achieve an excellent bass response, while the L3000 will never match the R10 nor the HE90 in imaging, midrange, sense of air around recording, resolution, details, and life-like soundstaging. Of course, if you are a rocker and heavy metals fan...I can see why you might prefer the L3000, Ed.9, and PS-1 more so than the R10 or the HE90 for that matters.
Hrmm I dunno about 9s 8.5s maybe. If I scale it with R10 as a 10 in midrange and Qualias as 10 in detail/imaging and K1000s with 10 in texture/decay and soundstage. All good headphones though.
Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ive never really been a fan of the oh 7000 dollars is 35x more expensive than a 200 dollar headphone so unless its 35x better then its overpriced way of thinking. Perhaps you aren't exactly putting it in that drastic of a perspective merely "It's not 6800 dollars better." Still, I feel a each heapdhone presents a sound and if that's the sound someone digs and they have the money then why not? Yeah I hardly thought that those two were the only ones disappointed, I'm sure many have been (I was looking at a pretty small time period). But there's I think a line between disappointed vs diappointed enough to sell ;p
While I'm always looking for something that is good value I find it simply idiotic to think that sound quality is a linear scale. You could say it is logarithmic just like you hearing so you need to throw a lot of money, engineering and skill for a little gain in overall quality.
I am not happy with the He90 but I've made my peace with them and I'm going to build a Hev90 to go with it. I would probably sell them if I weren't an insane electrostatic collector and I know that if I did I would regret it.
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Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif I personally have never thought the HE90 wins in any particular category I can pretty much name a headphone that beats it in any one area for sure, but I think the quality of the overall presentation is high. Perhaps it only ranks an 8 in every area but those 8s add up. I have heard a set up that has solidly beaten an he90/hev90 set up (K1000/Zanden) and Ive been told by a good # of people that the SR-Omega sounds similar but with better bass so atm I figure it might also be solidly a better headphone. I have not heard SR-Lambdas so I can't comment on that! Though I definitely bow to your superior knowledge of electrostatic headphones.
Both Omegas beat it pretty easily in every thing even the detail department but I guess I've said that a few times already...
The SR-Omegas have some serious design flaws that can destroy the drivers and there are no replacements to be had. You have been warned. A SR-Ω with SR-007 drivers will not sound like the original and that is the only option Stax has for fixing them.
The SR-Omega has much more in common with the younger brother then the He90 unless you drive it from an incompatible amp then you get this homogeneous blob that resembles the He90. With enough power they truly shine but IMO fall pretty short of the SR-007. Still a very nice headphone that is fun to own but a but frightening at times.
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Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lastly, I wasn't really saying that either the R10 or the HE90 are worth the current going rate per se, but merely that value is relative from person to person and they themselves should decide if these phones are worth it to them after some dedicated listening/comparison.
They are worth it if you want the best and if you can build a worthy system around them. A high end phone with sub par equipment is still good but nowhere near their true potential. It is all about the system...
Originally Posted by daveDerek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dave (great name!
), the r-10s and the sennheiser he90s (aka orpheus) are generally regarded as the top 2 cans here on head-fi, and indeed they are both very fine phones. in my opinion they are both overhyped and the prices that some ask for them are truly outlandish. there are any number of experienced head-fiers who prefer other phones that both cost less than these and are easier to find.
Agreed - while I can see how some enjoy them. They do some technical things well, for the price I was disappointed. I was ready to sell my other phones and find an R10 as a 1 headphones solution until I heard them. I realized how huge the law of diminishing returns was. And the "fun/enjoyment" factor wasn't there.
That being said, they have some great qualities.
The HE-90s are grossly overpriced IMHO. You can get almost world class speakers for the price. But they are the best sounding headphone I have ever heard and aren't light on bass. They have almost all the qualities you'd want and them some. They are stats though, so they won't give the impact... well I guess the R10s don't impact all that well either.
Yeah I never was particular impressed with details of the HE90, that's why I have Qualias. R10 is supposed to be quite detailed as well (To keep this post marginally on topic).
Pretty much the durability/availability of spare parts or service/and original MSRP are most likely what keeps the O1 at a lower price point than the HE90.
As for the O2? I dunno I heard it for a little while and was profoundly unimpressed of course it was from an HEV90 which probably isn't very suitable by your standards at all. I have an ES-1 now and I dunno how that fits in your crazy electrostatic amp world (I take a look in that Stax thread every couple of days and the amp talk only gets increasingly arcane), but if it is decently better for O2s than an HEV90 I will give them a shot out of that in the future.
I definitely feel the R10 is superior to the O2 as it stands now i wouldn't even put them in the same tier.
Agreed - while I can see how some enjoy them. They do some technical things well, for the price I was disappointed. I was ready to sell my other phones and find an R10 as a 1 headphones solution until I heard them. I realized how huge the law of diminishing returns was. And the "fun/enjoyment" factor wasn't there.
That being said, they have some great qualities.
The HE-90s are grossly overpriced IMHO. You can get almost world class speakers for the price. But they are the best sounding headphone I have ever heard and aren't light on bass. They have almost all the qualities you'd want and them some. They are stats though, so they won't give the impact... well I guess the R10s don't impact all that well either.
Well...the R10 can have impact and a good one if you get the bassy pair. OTOH, the lighter bass version is definitely the king of midrange, air, and soudnstaging.
Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I never was particular impressed with details of the HE90, that's why I have Qualias. R10 is supposed to be quite detailed as well (To keep this post marginally on topic).
Detail is a tricky beast as most associate it with treble detail and neglect the rest of the spectrum. I think bass and midrange detail is the most important but that's just me.
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Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pretty much the durability/availability of spare parts or service/and original MSRP are most likely what keeps the O1 at a lower price point than the HE90.
I think it is rather the hype. They have been largely overlooked until now.
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Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the O2? I dunno I heard it for a little while and was profoundly unimpressed of course it was from an HEV90 which probably isn't very suitable by your standards at all. I have an ES-1 now and I dunno how that fits in your crazy electrostatic amp world (I take a look in that Stax thread every couple of days and the amp talk only gets increasingly arcane), but if it is decently better for O2s than an HEV90 I will give them a shot out of that in the future.
I definitely feel the R10 is superior to the O2 as it stands now i wouldn't even put them in the same tier.
I'm not crazy... ok a bit crazy...
The ES-1 has always been a mixed bag for me, construction issues and other things aside, it reminds me of Lamm equipment. Very expensive but always kind of blah...
I'll duly admit that I'm going off the deep end in the amp department but there is nothing available that is good enough so DIY is the only option. That will also give me complete control over every piece that goes into it and the over all design as I can't stand the crap that most manufacturers put in their "high-end" products. Greed is a nasty thing but thankfully most headamp manufacturers are very reasonable when it comes to this...
A Hev90 doesn't even have the right bias voltage for any Stax headphone, let alone the drive capability so it is a horrible match. It is also way too warm and euphonic for its own good but that is of course what the He90 needs.
Originally Posted by Jahn /img/forum/go_quote.gif i've had the chance to hear an ED9 (minty fresh, not broken in however) against the R10. And honestly the signature isn't anything alike, and personal preference leans towards the R10 (and all the big boy Grados) versus the Ultrasone, which was high, sharp and roundy in comparison.
All the negative qualities that you describe with "out of the Box" Edition 9s are qualities that change with adequate burn in (minimum 250hrs and 400+ even better). You might find a pair that have been burned in and then give them a listen.
I love my Edition 9s, and think they are a great headphone, but in general I felt the R-10s were better in terms of overall sound quality. Still when I factor in price, the hunt it would take for the R-10s, and any "insecurity" over the details of completing a sale for used R-10s, I am perfectly happy with the Edition 9s. That said, I can fully understand how someone who has the R-10s already would not be all that interested in the Edition 9s.
The Edition 9s have been getting a lot more "love" in the past few months as many other have started to aquire them. I feel confident that over time, and especially if they got discontinued, they would take on the legendary status of many of the top tier headphones. In my book they are already firmly into the upper middle of the top tier of headphones in terms of sound quality. So get them "early" while the price is "only" $1140.
For me, the he90s just makes me listen and enjoy the music without wanting to analyze everything like I do with other cans. I can see how you can improve on details, but boy, its just so "natural!"
As for 02s I've also heard them side to side with the he90, but I was not impressed at all - I felt almost claustrophobic with the 02, and simply cound't enjoy them. This comes from a basshead -so its definitely not the amount of bass 02 has over the he90. It just didn't sound right.
A person who I trust a lot enjoyed 01s a lot more than he90/o2, so I'm hoping that they would do for me as well. We'll see we'll see....
By the way, spritzer, are your main amps DIY? I was thinking about upgrading my amps sometime, but since you seem to like DIY more than the "famous" es1, I'm kinda thinking about asking someone to build a custom rig for me sometime in the future...
On a side note, dan, you should get a pair of o2s on your upgraded es1 rig and see how it fares to the he90. The comparison between the two was hands down he90 for me and several other 02 users on my rig.
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Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah I never was particular impressed with details of the HE90, that's why I have Qualias. R10 is supposed to be quite detailed as well (To keep this post marginally on topic).
Pretty much the durability/availability of spare parts or service/and original MSRP are most likely what keeps the O1 at a lower price point than the HE90.
As for the O2? I dunno I heard it for a little while and was profoundly unimpressed of course it was from an HEV90 which probably isn't very suitable by your standards at all. I have an ES-1 now and I dunno how that fits in your crazy electrostatic amp world (I take a look in that Stax thread every couple of days and the amp talk only gets increasingly arcane), but if it is decently better for O2s than an HEV90 I will give them a shot out of that in the future.
I definitely feel the R10 is superior to the O2 as it stands now i wouldn't even put them in the same tier.
I'd rank the R-10 between the HE90 and Qualias. The HE90's are pure music and nothing else can beat that for me. The R-10's are quite impressive and are the only headphones I've heard that sound like they have built in crossfeed. I listened to them with a (I assume) non-optimal amp and they were bright as hell; I'm confident this can be corrected with the correct amp, though. The Qualias are a pair of phones I'd never keep around. The mids are among the worst I've ever heard.
Originally Posted by DavidMahler /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm contemplating saving up for a pair of Sony MDR-R10s. but the price tag seems just too much. Are these headphones really that good? I mean, do they trump all other headphones?
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