[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 928GTS /img/forum/go_quote.gif Kees,if you honestly think the way the OP presented his opinion was in any way mature,intelligent and progressive then I certainly beg to differ. I certainly do not claim to know it all,in fact I have much to learn but I do believe I have a pretty decent idea of what sounds natural and right. Is there room to improve in that view? I am most certain of it because I have many years ahead of me from which to learn but your quick discounting of my opinion is appalling and quite unfortunate. Where anywhere in my post did I mention anything about $10,000 speakers and when did I ever say I had a definite opinion on them? I'm not condemning the OP at all,I'm just shocked at his lack of tact and maturity. You're extrapolating to a frightening degree. Just because it sounds good doesn't necessarily mean it has to cost a bundle.

Cheap stuff ,with carefull tweaking and combining components, can be made to sound really amazingly good.
Extremely expensive stuff can sound, more often than you'd think, extremely bad.
But some people turn the argument around and declare all expensive gear to be robbery and snake oil. Wrong. Some of it is actually worth it's price tag.
I suggest you read my post again and then take another look at your reaction. And then think a bit more.

 

[928GTS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Cheap stuff ,with carefull tweaking and combining components, can be made to sound really amazingly good. Extremely expensive stuff can sound, more often than you'd think, extremely bad. But some people turn the argument around and declare all expensive gear to be robbery and snake oil. Wrong. Some of it is actually worth it's price tag. I suggest you read my post again and then take another look at your reaction. And then think a bit more.

I reread your post and found it just as accusatory as I did when I first read it. Its one thing to say "Some younger people...."(even so its still offensive if you're making a baseless attack on group X or Y)but its an entirely different kettle of fish to use defining words like "he". Thats putting a name to a description and thus singling a person out and thus making a direct attack on someone. I find that a bit crude,low and just not very polite.

I will certainly let you have your opinion because audio is so incredibly subjective. Everyone's ear is different and what may sound great to one person's ear may sound awful to another's. I certainly agree some expensive items very much deserve their merit. Not all of it is just smoke and mirrors,there are truly some products built with high quality materials that cost a significant amount of money and thus require a higher price tag that do indeed sound good and perform. Nowhere did I deny this,I instead stated that some systems and components do not give a very good return on investment.

You remind me of the old man who sits on his porch and yells at all the young kids who come by and who won't budge from his beliefs. You're discounting someone's opinion just because they're younger than you? True some kids are arrogant but just as well many adults share the same outlook!

Maybe you should just relax,enjoy the fact that the hobby you invest time,energy and money into is enjoyed by so many other people and that you have so many other people to talk to and bounce ideas off of. Seriously,be less uptight,relax and just enjoy the wonder that is audio. Aren't we supposed to be accepting of other's opinions in life? If that person tries their best to make a fair,non accusatory or insulting opinion then shouldn't we hear them out and respect their opinion? If someone who presents an opinion comes across as angry,aggressive and just out to piss people off then by all means they should be reprimanded. I have no problem with people offering constructive criticism to said opinion but the key word is constructive.

But the overall message? Chill,man!

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 928GTS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I reread your post and found it just as accusatory as I did when I first read it. Its one thing to say "Some younger people...."(even so its still offensive if you're making a baseless attack on group X or Y)but its an entirely different kettle of fish to use defining words like "he". Thats putting a name to a description and thus singling a person out and thus making a direct attack on someone. I find that a bit crude,low and just not very polite. I will certainly let you have your opinion because audio is so incredibly subjective. Everyone's ear is different and what may sound great to one person's ear may sound awful to another's. I certainly agree some expensive items very much deserve their merit. Not all of it is just smoke and mirrors,there are truly some products built with high quality materials that cost a significant amount of money and thus require a higher price tag that do indeed sound good and perform. Nowhere did I deny this,I instead stated that some systems and components do not give a very good return on investment. You remind me of the old man who sits on his porch and yells at all the young kids who come by and who won't budge from his beliefs. You're discounting someone's opinion just because they're younger than you? True some kids are arrogant but just as well many adults share the same outlook! Maybe you should just relax,enjoy the fact that the hobby you invest time,energy and money into is enjoyed by so many other people and that you have so many other people to talk to and bounce ideas off of. Seriously,be less uptight,relax and just enjoy the wonder that is audio. Aren't we supposed to be accepting of other's opinions in life? If that person tries their best to make a fair,non accusatory or insulting opinion then shouldn't we hear them out and respect their opinion? If someone who presents an opinion comes across as angry,aggressive and just out to piss people off then by all means they should be reprimanded. I have no problem with people offering constructive criticism to said opinion but the key word is constructive. But the overall message? Chill,man!

Your posts are the best illustration I could ask for.
I feel a bit sorry for you, but I think you wouldn't understand that.
Enjoy your hobby.

 

[Akabeth]

Hahaha... Sorry I have nothing to add, yet I want to see how this thread develops.

As for me, I'm still young, constantly learning from experienced members, and only a novice with this lifetime hobby. I'm just getting started. I'll eventually get my speaker rig anyway

Actually if I can add one thing before this thread gets out of hand: Music first, equipment comes afterwards

 

[928GTS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your posts are the best illustration I could ask for. I feel a bit sorry for you, but I think you wouldn't understand that. Enjoy your hobby.

Have fun being bitter and unwilling to accept other people's opinions. I'm certainly not calling you out and saying you're inexperienced or what have you. You need to learn to relax. I feel sorry for you.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

Quote:

Originally Posted by geekchic /img/forum/go_quote.gif I belong to an older demographic (30+) and I spent a good part of my teen years drooling over speakers that I knew I would never be able to afford - read reviews of Polk, B&W, JBL, Jamo etc. and thought I would never be able to set up a decent sounding system for myself.

I was just gonna lurk here and not post. That's pretty funny - I own three of the 4 brands you listed, and might be buying some old JBL monitors off my neighbor soon.

In my case, I'm 46 and have been listening to the same sub $1000 Polk SDA CRS speakers since 1985 or 86 (SDA CRS = Stereo Dimensional Array Compact Reference System). They are just as impressive today as they were 20+ years ago. I have B&W book-shelfs, and a Jamo 5.1 with Velodyne sub and Velodyne satellites and sub, and the 20+ year old Polk are still what I listen to daily. These SDA actually sound a little like headphones by canceling the crosstalk between channels, which creates a little surround sound experience with the ambience in music. Now we have headphone amps that are designed to add crossfeed to the headphones to make them more like speakers. We've come full circle.

In all the years I made good money before being forced to retire by illness, I could never accept the idea that you needed to spend $5,000, $10,000 or $50,000 for speakers to sound life-like. I think it may actually be possible to mod common every day speakers to sound good, but a person on a budget is more likely to achieve nirvana with headphones than with speakers. If money is no object then sure, gimme speakers, and a dedicated tuned sound room to go with them.

 

[ClieOS]

It is like going to a Vespa forum and ask the members whether they are Ferrari dumb. Perhaps they just like to keep their passion for Italian car outside of a scooter forum? I don't think anyone can blame them for that.

 

[Drag0n]

Play nice,kiddies

 

[jma790]

Heh, the title of the thread is funny. But calling someone dumb... Oh no man, that's not the way to go!

 

[Logistics]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Music isn't designed to be played on headphones. You won't find an engineer mixing a recording wearing cans. See ya Steve

Since it's been mentioned in several threads that studio monitors are used for mixing recordings and do not produce the same sound as normal speakers, could you not also say that music isn't designed to be played on normal speakers?

A simple google reveals tons of articles by huge names in the mixing world who find it necessary to mix on speakers as well as headphones because mixing on only one or the other causes the recording to sound good on one, but poor on the other.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 928GTS /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will certainly let you have your opinion because audio is so incredibly subjective. Everyone's ear is different and what may sound great to one person's ear may sound awful to another's. I certainly agree some expensive items very much deserve their merit. Not all of it is just smoke and mirrors,there are truly some products built with high quality materials that cost a significant amount of money and thus require a higher price tag that do indeed sound good and perform. Nowhere did I deny this,I instead stated that some systems and components do not give a very good return on investment.

People have different tastes in equipment, however, it is a mistake to lump all gear together because of that. There are objective differences between components and objective measurements of performance.

If you'd like to learn more, check out the technical side. You'll see that some designs are designed to hit a certain price bracket. Designers compromise their designs to save on materials. Unless you understand how and why the gear works, you'll have a hard time telling the designer's best from the compromised. You'll also get insight into which designs come from genuine engineers as opposed to those with a little knowledge and a whole lot of marketing savvy.

When you understand what goes into a design for labor, materials and overhead, you'll be able to make informed judgments about the prices.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logistics /img/forum/go_quote.gif Since it's been mentioned in several threads that studio monitors are used for mixing recordings and do not produce the same sound as normal speakers, could you not also say that music isn't designed to be played on normal speakers?

That's the fault of lousy modern speaker design, not the fault of speakers in general. Speaker manufacturers have compromised the sound of speakers to make them as tiny as possible. Those satellite speaker systems with big honking subwoofers on the floor may be less obtrusive in people's homes, but they don't sound good at all. There is always a huge firebreak between frequency bands. Impossible to balance.

A real speaker system is designed like a studio monitor and comes in a real cabinet. That's what music is designed to be played on. If you're serious about sound, that's what you want to use.

Re: Sound mixing- After you've completed your mix, you try it out on crappy systems to see if any of the peaks are too big to be handled. You tame them if necessary, but that isn't the same as mixing to headphones. I've supervised hundreds of sound sessions. No professional mixes to headphones.

See ya
Steve

 

[Agnostic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think there are a lot of very young and inexperienced people around here, that don't have a clue (yet) about the difference of what sounds natural and what sounds good to them. Very often they combine that with an attitude of "knowing it all" that is appalling (and quite often offending) to those who know better. Some of them grow older without getting any wiser. I don't blame a college student for not knowing anything about $10000 speakers, but I find it annoying if he expresses a very definite opinion about them and condemning other people while doing that. Your posts are the best illustration I could ask for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif I feel a bit sorry for you, but I think you wouldn't understand that. Enjoy your hobby.

I'm sorry to say but I have to agree that your remarks do indeed seem quite baselessly condescending and bitter.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClieOS /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is like going to a Vespa forum and ask the members whether they are Ferrari dumb. Perhaps they just like to keep their passion for Italian car outside of a scooter forum? I don't think anyone can blame them for that.

x2

People have different preferences. And those with the same preference tend to meet up together. Either in person, or through dedicated communities.
Hence why you find people who prefer headphones on Head-Fi, and those who prefer speakers somewhere else (audiocircle, audiogon, ...).

 

[geekchic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeadphoneAddict /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was just gonna lurk here and not post. That's pretty funny - I own three of the 4 brands you listed, and might be buying some old JBL monitors off my neighbor soon. In my case, I'm 46 and have been listening to the same sub $1000 Polk SDA CRS speakers since 1985 or 86 (SDA CRS = Stereo Dimensional Array Compact Reference System). They are just as impressive today as they were 20+ years ago. I have B&W book-shelfs, and a Jamo 5.1 with Velodyne sub and Velodyne satellites and sub, and the 20+ year old Polk are still what I listen to daily.

That's awesome and I also feel a little envious. The Polk speakers must be great sounding if they've kept you hooked for 20 years!

Quote:

Originally Posted by krmathis /img/forum/go_quote.gif ..and those who prefer speakers somewhere else (audiocircle, audiogon, ...).

This whole discussion has actually sparked some of my interest back in speakers. I will be checking those sites out for sure. Thanks!