[jrosenth]

Okey dokey.

It seems a few folks are saying, hey it's not a speaker forum so we shouldn't expect head-fiers to know about speakers.

On one level fair enough.

But I don't think it's really like comparing apples to oranges.

Presumably both audiences are interested in a great, or at least great-for-the-dollar, musical experience.

Even the vocabulary both audiences use in describing these experiences are pretty similar.

Both audiences use the same sources - you can find parallel conversations on source, cables, and music happening here and on speaker forums.

And then you have a good number of folks here asking speaker questions.

IMHO, it just seems like that last bit is where it breaks down. Not that headphone listeners should be uber-savvy on speakers, but just that one might expect a lot of the same strategies, values, desired experiences, etc. to be similar.

I think that was the point of the first thread with this title as well.

So, sure, a couple people have said it's not a speaker forum. Fair enough. I'd love to hear their take on the overlap or lack thereof.

 

[malldian]

I do not need high fidelity in every part of my life. When I am listening to music "critically" or just want to hear hi-fi music I use my headphones. When I am having a party I use an old dell headphone out to some VERY old Kenwood receiver with huge Akai floorstanding speakers, not hi-fi at all. Do they rock out? Absolutley! Even those who appreciate hi-fi don't pursue it down every music listening avenue.

 

[spacemanspliff]

Hey, guess what I just got for $350?

sda srs-2 circa 1987, minty sonic and ok cosmetic condition. the speakers look new really. just a few wonks and a bit of warping on the trim of one of the tops.

They are very much so headphone-like speakers. Darth like actually.

Big boys for certain. I am getting a new house! Thank goodness for that. You should see how cramped my little room is with those lunkers in it!

Soon, a finished basement awaits. I have no idea how the config is going to end up but the room looks to be at least 25 x 25 with 9 ft ceilings.

Now I just need a strong enough amp lol.

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrosenth /img/forum/go_quote.gif [...] What in the frick is going on? Are head-fiers speaker dumb? Is it just that the headphone market is flowing towards a younger demographic and we should expect a sort of cross talk? [...]

You answered it yourself. Head-fi (today) panders to a much younger demographic than most high-end forums. It's an (almost) inevitable side-effect of being successful. You build on the success of having a stellar forum full of serious people that really know their stuff, then that word gets out there, and you get flooded with kids who bring their own immaturity and lack of knowledge (or caring about knowledge) with them. This started around 2006 and hasn't stopped today.

I suppose the mods could have put a stop to it, and I wish they did, but that would have involved very strict action that would have alienated a tremendous chunk of the population. I had this discussion with the mods, and I think they explained their point of view quite well.

Besides, how do you explain to someone that their post is inane? Ho do you politely tell someone that they don't know what the hell they're talking about and that they should listen to people with more experience? It isn't possible without stepping on a lot of toes, and setting off fragile teenage tempers.

So, if you're looking for intelligent high-end speaker discussion, then this isn't the place.

This isn't the same head-fi that existed in 2004.

I do have hopes for the high-end forum though.

 

[jrosenth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch /img/forum/go_quote.gif You answered it yourself. Head-fi (today) panders to a much younger demographic than most high-end forums. It's an (almost) inevitable side-effect of being successful. You build on the success of having a stellar forum full of serious people that really know their stuff, then that word gets out there, and you get flooded with kids who bring their own immaturity and lack of knowledge (or caring about knowledge) with them. This started around 2006 and hasn't stopped today. I suppose the mods could have put a stop to it, and I wish they did, but that would have involved very strict action that would have alienated a tremendous chunk of the population. I had this discussion with the mods, and I think they explained their point of view quite well. Besides, how do you explain to someone that their post is inane? Ho do you politely tell someone that they don't know what the hell they're talking about and that they should listen to people with more experience? It isn't possible without stepping on a lot of toes, and setting off fragile teenage tempers. So, if you're looking for intelligent high-end speaker discussion, then this isn't the place. This isn't the same head-fi that existed in 2004. I do have hopes for the high-end forum though.

That is one of the most interesting, intelligent posts I have read in a long time and it really does answer my question.

Thanks for that response catscratch - I appreciate it.

 

[Wmcmanus]

I've got a bunch of speakers (at least 7 pairs of full size high end speakers), mostly I suppose because I'm a nut case, but also because I live in a place where it's not very practical to try to sell used high end audio gear (i.e., there really isn't a market for what I'd have to sell in Cayman). So after importing a pair of speakers from the US to Cayman, those speakers will pretty much stay with me forever. It makes no sense to ship them back to the US to sell them (that doubles what was already a rather high shipping cost), and I don't want every fool on the Island to be wandering around my house in response to a classified ad and seeing what else they might want to come back for in the middle of the night.

So, sort of by default, I end up "collecting" speakers by virtue of the upgrade process. About how interesting is this so far? I thought so, not very. But I could go on and describe every pair of speakers I've ever used, and where they are located now (a couple of pairs in bedroom systems, another pair in the garage system, some stuffed in closets collecting dust, and so on), but for the most part, people wouldn't really care too much. It's a headphones forum, not a speakers forum, and chances are nobody else on Head-Fi even owns a pair of Newform Research R645 ribbon speakers, for example.

That doesn't mean that I'm dumb or that anyone else as Head-Fi is dumb when it comes to understanding speaker systems. It's just not a big topic here, probably because it ought not to be; there are plenty of other audio forums that cater to the speaker-based world of audiophiles, and that's where I tend to go when I want to talk about my big rig or the various other speaker-based systems that I still occasionally make use of.

Sorry that I had to bore everyone by explaining something that wasn't very interesting, but I felt I had to do that to prove the point that (at least at Head-Fi), such a discussion really isn't very interesting.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

It seems a few folks are saying, hey it's not a speaker forum so we shouldn't expect head-fiers to know about speakers.

i think that is phrasing it slightly wrong.

i think a good deal of people on this site have knowledge about speakers, BUT as you pointed out the discussion here is aimed toward headphones, so the occasion to discuss speakers comes up less often. and i'm sure there is a decent percentage of people here that know very little about speakers, but again, that topic - although related - is still different, some would say very different.

regarding the level of maturity and intelligent discussion argument, i don't see how that is related to speakers. i don't ever recall there being lively and/or wide spread debate or discussion about speakers on this site - even from posts going back way before my time.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wmcmanus /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's a headphones forum, not a speakers forum, and chances are nobody else on Head-Fi even owns a pair of Newform Research R645 ribbon speakers, for example. That doesn't mean that I'm dumb or that anyone else as Head-Fi is dumb when it comes to understanding speaker systems. It's just not a big topic here, probably because it ought not to be; there are plenty of other audio forums that cater to the speaker-based world of audiophiles, and that's where I tend to go when I want to talk about my big rig or the various other speaker-based systems that I still occasionally make use of. Sorry that I had to bore everyone by explaining something that wasn't very interesting, but I felt I had to do that to prove the point that (at least at Head-Fi), such a discussion really isn't very interesting.

well put.

 

[jrosenth]

Okay - got it - not a speaker forum.

Only thing is, people post asking about speakers all the time (as of this post time literally half of the threads on the first page of this board are about speakers). Indeed they are one of the dedicated topics of this board.

And there is a lot of overlap in appreciation of musical reproduction, shared system components, etc. (Actually because I trust the opinions of some folks here on these issues I'm particularly interested on their take on speakers when the need arises - by the way, thanks for sharing that spacemanspiff - I think you're in for some serious fun!)

Let me frame it this way: anyone else find it slightly odd to read posts here about bumpin' cerwin vegas? Would it be odd if it were more than an aberrant opinion? How about as the dominant opinion in a thread, would the same responses of it simply not being a speaker forum, or some variant of that point, ring true?

Saying it's not a speaker forum so expect that sort of discussion here would honestly seem very odd IMHO.

The bumpin vega.s are a somewhat different issue that the finer points of ribbon speakers or distribution particularities of island logistics.

Speaking of clarifying, I think the maturity references go through the link of the demographics of each group - very different average ages of head-fi vs Agon members, for example.

In any case, I appreciate catscratch's post. I'll take his description of his conversation with the mods at face value - not only because of his history here but because it makes sense and rings true to me.

 

[BIG POPPA]

I scaled down from Hi-fi to Head-fi. Been in Hi-fi almost 30 years. I know a little about speakers. A little less about headphones.

 

[panda]

how is posts about 'bumpin cerwin vegas' any different than all those headphone recco threads about x product with the most bass!? in your logic, the same could be said that head-fi is majority headphone dumb as well...

i'm sure there are adults that are in the same boat as these 'younger demographics' as well. i know plenty of old folks that know nothing about fidelity except that they know they like certain aspects of audio that might be frowned upon by others.

 

[jrosenth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif in your logic, the same could be said that head-fi is majority headphone dumb as well...

Do you really think it's the majority?

In any case, point taken. There is a lot of that and it bleeds over between headphones and speakers. (Although I would like to think that there is somewhat of a difference between Darth Beyers and Cerwin Vegasm- but there's definitely a lot of that outside of the Beyer contingency).

I don't think it's the majority, but I do think that what you're pointing out is part of Catscratch's point about what's been happening across head-fi, outside of just speakers. He's saying that there's been a shifting demographic across all of head-fi over the past couple of years and that has created a change in the quality of the discussion of even headphones. He's also saying that that's been acknowledged by the mods and is part of the evolution of the community. That seems right with my personal experience here over a couple of years here and with community evolution in general (early inner folks moving to another community once the first community starts down this path - actually it's already happening here - I've started spending some time at the 'other place' and find it, not a replacement, but certainly refreshing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by panda /img/forum/go_quote.gif i'm sure there are adults that are in the same boat as these 'younger demographics' as well. i know plenty of old folks that know nothing about fidelity except that they know they like certain aspects of audio that might be frowned upon by others.

Speaking of basic logic, the argument is not that age exclusively defines a category of musical preference or musical reproduction priority, style of discussion or maturity, or even income. So, yes there are 'adults' that XYZ and I'm sure your personal experience bears that out.

There is, however, a strong correlation between them. Which means that different communities with different average ages/generations and other demographic elements tend to exhibit different behavior, purchasing, preferences/priorities, discussion/argument, etc.

 

[Bones13]

I got back into HiFi appreciation due to some ER4 IEMs I happened across several years ago, while paired with an iPod Shuffle (gen 1) which traveled well, and sounded better on airplanes than the clumsy gen 1 Bose noise cancellation headphones. As my music appreciation increased with new head-fi gear, I turned my interests back into speakers at the computer-side. I already had developed multi-speaker setups for my 2 DVD watching locations (den and bedroom). Once I heard the music of the Senn HD650 and my UE10pros, even the iFi system at my computer was lacking in coherency. The iFi was replaced with a nice amp and some Monitor Audio speakers. Currently the Swans m200 at my office is being replaced with a modded T-Amp and some full range speakers from Tekton.

I had a very nice set of DIY 3 way speakers back in college (late 70s) that were 2x4x1 foot in size, nice in a dorm room, but I had to rebox them once I got married. They never made it out of my first condo though.

I played with a DIY abbey with a Fostex driver, but liked the Monitor Audio better. Now that my DIY efforts are well burned in, they sound great in my son's room.

To get back to the current thoughts in this thread. Of course different music types, and sound qualities will be liked by different age groups, ethnic groups, and so on and so on.

To be honest, I don't see folks bringing a sound meter/analyzer to the music store, and instead of actually listening to the gear, measure the response curves, and buy based on the machine readings. (Ok, Ok, I am sure that some look up the curves, and buy the gear based on that curves they can find in magazines, web, etc.

Also, 2 people listening to the same gear will hear different things. I am finding this to be very true as I near 50.

Lastly, the same gear will sound very different in different listening rooms.

Listen, like, purchase, whatever the gear is.

 

[Scooterboy]

My observation is that it is not so much an issue of "Speaker Retardation or Speakers vs Headphones but it is High End Audio vs PC / Ipod /earbud user, and communications between the 2 camps is difficult if not impossible.

No correct me if I am wrong. Aren't the "Audiophile " goals the same for the " High End" headphone user and the "High End" speaker user?

 

[Skylab]

For me they are: a highly engaging, enjoyable, realistic presentation of the music.