[music_4321]

 
Quote:

Uh common courtesy, and if you want to nitpick on language I could tell you the post which I responded to contradicted your first one, going by your logic. And I could go on about this current one but I shan't because it's pointless.
 

 
No comment.
 
Quote:

Because i've read so many threads which describe how very fragile these BA drivers are...
 

...i mean seriously , no shock protection for the reputedly fragile BA drivers which are just glued on to a plastic surface? The earphones cost thousands and theres nothing to prevent damage like that ? :O
 

This is how unfounded rumours are spread. So many threads? Really? I must have missed most of them.
 
The earphones cost thousands? $4,000, $7,000, $10,000, $20,000?
 
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A balanced armature is a sound transducer design primarily intended to increase the electrical efficiency of the element by eliminating the stress on the diaphragm characteristic of many other magnetic transducer systems.It consists of a moving magnetic armature that is pivoted so it can move in the field of the permanent magnet. When precisely centered in the magnetic field there is no net force on the armature, hence the term 'balanced' . When there is electric current through the coil, it magnetizes the armature one way or the other, causing it to rotate slightly one way or the other about the pivot thus moving the diaphragm to make sound. The design is not mechanically stable; a slight imbalance makes the armature stick to one pole of the magnet. A fairly stiff restoring force is required to hold the armature in the 'balance' position. Although this reduces its efficiency, this design can still produce more sound from less power than any other.

Cutting and pasting from Chinese Wikipedia is not allowed. Can you please translate the above into English?
 
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A number of people have reported ba driver failures of their customs. The reports are buried in the JH and, most recently and maybe easier to find, Westone ES5 threads. So, whether manufacturing defects or wear and tear, it does give a sense of possibility of driver failure.
 

Yes, that is a possibility, but still mere speculation, I believe. In the case of the ES5 some of these issues were reported within days of ownership and I'm more inclined to believe that was more Westone's fault in building these sets than a characteristic of BA drivers. BA drivers have been around for a while now and I don't remember reading all that often of driver failures that would lead me to believe this is something specifically related to BA drivers. We've heard/ read of countless 'driver failures' in both BA & DD IEMs. I attribute this more to how people treat their IEMs rather than how 'fragile' the drivers may be. However, having multiple drivers (5, 6, 8 per shell) may prove a much more challenging & tricky job in terms of assembling such a set of customs. In that sense they may be more delicate than a single, dual or triple BA set of customs.
 
I have read a few times of people who have had their customs for several years (dual & triple BAs) and these still being in great shape. I've had my ES3X for 2 years now and although I do look after my gear, I've become much less overly careful with my customs precisely because of how solidly built they are. Apart from the cables turning blue/ green, the shells themselves look as good as new and the sound hasn't changed.
 

 

[aleki]

 
Quote:

Hmm thats interesting, I often hear that BA drivers are far more prone to damage as compared to their dynamic cousins and most people recommend taking very good care of them. I understand that reliability is indeed a factor in custom earphones but wouldn't musical accuracy and the form factor be the main one? I doubt a pair of high end IEMS in the 300-500 dollar range would be much less reliable than a pair of 1000+ dollar customs, since they both use the same "quality" of BA drivers right?
 

 
I have experienced way more driver failures with DD's than BA's. Actually, I have never experienced a BA fail on me; with the exception of a messed up TF10 cable, resulting in a warranty replacement. I like the sound of DD's, but I will never have one go into a custom since my ear likes to destroy them. Unless the DD's are vented, I need to wear comply's or the drivers will flex and crinkle from the negative pressure.

 

[chaosfayt]

Well I meant that their cost could range up to a thousand or more. .my own costed me 1.3k usd as a gauge

The extract i took is perfectly intelligible and generally explains the workings of the armature, not too sure how to translate that for you pal, im afraid you'll have to help me with that.

No doubt i have seen more than a few threads and discussions on driver failure and their fragility, whether it be on this forum or other audiophile in the interwebs. They are usually buried deep in threads as an individual post rather than a thread set up to deal with it. Usually in the appreciation threads. Hence it is easy to miss.

I might have been mistaken, but from my time prowling online forums i feel that generally the opinion is that BA drivers are rather fragile and are not able to take much shock.

Customs if treated with care are meant to last for a long time, 3-5 years should not be a problem. Majority of the people with customs tend to baby them alot as well, and alot of custom users i know have never knocked/dropped their customs before and tell me that the customs are rather fragile perhaps the custom users i associate with are mis-informed then as well? But sh** happens and sometimes people accidentally drop/knock their customs around leading to spoilage, and that is when driver durability comes into play lol, when sh** happens. Certainly i would expect the drivers to last a long time under normal conditions , no knocks , no drops, just normal usage and stuff.

Surely the aluminium box casings that some companies give with their customs is Some form of indication that it needs more babying than maybe a pair of apple earphones heh.
 

 

[music_4321]

 
Quote:

I often hear that BA drivers are far more prone to damage as compared to their dynamic cousins and most people recommend taking very good care of them.
 

 
I'll say this again: this is how unfounded rumours are spread. Forgive me but I don't often hear (ie read) what you hear. I hadn't seen JackKontney's post when I wrote my last post. I suggest you read his post again AND again.
 
 
Quote:

Well I meant that their cost could range up to a thousand or more. .my own costed me 1.3k usd as a gauge
 

 
Oh, so it's not thousands, then. And what about all those other people who have spent a lot less than $1,000? Do they count?
 
Quote:

The extract i took is perfectly intelligible and generally explains the workings of the armature, not too sure how to translate that for you pal, im afraid you'll have to help me with that.
 

I'm afraid I can't help you with that, "pal". Can't read Chinese yet.
 
Quote:

No doubt i have seen more than a few threads and discussions on driver failure and their fragility, whether it be on this forum or other audiophile in the interwebs. They are usually buried deep in threads as an individual post rather than a thread set up to deal with it. Usually in the appreciation threads. Hence it is easy to miss.

I might have been mistaken, but from my time prowling online forums i feel that generally the opinion is that BA drivers are rather fragile and are not able to take much shock.
 

 
Oh, so now it's a few post posts "buried deep in threads" rather than "so many threads"?
 
 
Quote:

Customs if treated with care are meant to last for a long time, 3-5 years should not be a problem. Majority of the people with customs tend to baby them alot as well, and alot of custom users i know have never knocked/dropped their customs before and tell me that the customs are rather fragile perhaps the custom users i associate with are mis-informed then as well?

So now it's 3-5 years, is it? And just where did you get such scientific data? I think, to be honest, you haven't done enough research and, just like so many posts seen here, you're misinforming people.
 
Quote:

Surely the aluminium box casings that some companies give with their customs is Some form of indication that it needs more babying than maybe a pair of apple earphones heh.

 
Well, the (now cheap) TF10s come with an excellent metal crush-proof case. The mega expensive SE535s ($450+) come with a case that isn't half as solid as the TF10's case. The First W3s ($400) came with a laughable soft case that not even some $100 IEMs use.
 

 

[chaosfayt]

Haters gotta hate.

And are any of the earphones you brought up customs ?

 

[aleki]

 
Quote:

Well I meant that their cost could range up to a thousand or more. .my own costed me 1.3k usd as a gauge

The extract i took is perfectly intelligible and generally explains the workings of the armature, not too sure how to translate that for you pal, im afraid you'll have to help me with that.

No doubt i have seen more than a few threads and discussions on driver failure and their fragility, whether it be on this forum or other audiophile in the interwebs. They are usually buried deep in threads as an individual post rather than a thread set up to deal with it. Usually in the appreciation threads. Hence it is easy to miss.

I might have been mistaken, but from my time prowling online forums i feel that generally the opinion is that BA drivers are rather fragile and are not able to take much shock.

Customs if treated with care are meant to last for a long time, 3-5 years should not be a problem. Majority of the people with customs tend to baby them alot as well, and alot of custom users i know have never knocked/dropped their customs before and tell me that the customs are rather fragile perhaps the custom users i associate with are mis-informed then as well? But sh** happens and sometimes people accidentally drop/knock their customs around leading to spoilage, and that is when driver durability comes into play lol, when sh** happens. Certainly i would expect the drivers to last a long time under normal conditions , no knocks , no drops, just normal usage and stuff.

Surely the aluminium box casings that some companies give with their customs is Some form of indication that it needs more babying than maybe a pair of apple earphones heh.
 

oh, ok. I see what you mean. by pure speculation on how complex they are, I can agree that armatures may be a bit more prone to impact damage than a dynamic; still, I feel like the impact would need to be quite substantial for it to take damage(slamming them on the floor, falling on them while snowboarding/biking/sporting etc.).
although, as long as they are plugged in, I can only imagine the magnets have a greater influence on the moving voice coil than impact or gravity. ofcourse, this is only speculation on my part

 

[chaosfayt]

My apologies if you think i'm "spreading" false rumours that customs are fragile,music. The topic was meant as a question to clarify that exact same subject being a custom earphone user myself and being under the impression that they should be baby-ed . I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks the customs require extra care. About the balanced armature drivers.. cmon do a search google it or whatever, you'll see that the general consensus are that they are more prone to impact damage than dynamic drivers....its mechanical science man...

And , If you havent already realised my thread title was "are custom earphones really all that fragile?" and not " Custom earphones are really fragile"

About lasting 3-5 years , I heard that directly from the representative of the company which i bought my customs from when i asked about its expected lifespan. Do i really have to find and quote user statistics for your sake? I think not , heh.
 

 

[rroseperry]

Quote:

My apologies if you think i'm "spreading" false rumours that customs are fragile,music. The topic was meant as a question to clarify that exact same subject being a custom earphone user myself and being under the impression that they should be baby-ed . I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks the customs require extra care. About the balanced armature drivers.. cmon do a search google it or whatever, you'll see that the general consensus are that they are more prone to impact damage than dynamic drivers....its mechanical science man... If you havent realised my thread title was "are custom earphones really all that fragile?" and not " Custom earphones are really fragile"

About lasting 3-5 years , I heard that directly from the representative of the company which i bought my customs from when i asked about its expected lifespan.
 

 
But Googling just gets you a bunch of anecdotal whining about busted customs.  You're not hearing about the cases that don't break and even after a look at the threads Kunlun suggested above, broken (generally within days of delivery => manufacturing problem) balanced armatures seem not to happen all that often.
 
And those nice cases? People expect to get something nice for dropping a bunch of cash on their toys. Not every manufacture gratifies that expectation either. Grado's iems come in a cardboard box, no carrying case, not even a bag. I love my Gr8s to death, but their accessories are a bit lacking.
 
 

 

[chaosfayt]

googling about BA vs dynamic drivers , pros and cons etc , not googling BA driver failure , the latter is sure to give you threads of people whining about driver failures
 

 

[music_4321]

Quote:

My apologies if you think i'm "spreading" false rumours that customs are fragile,music. The topic was meant as a question to clarify that exact same subject being a custom earphone user myself and being under the impression that they should be baby-ed . I'm sure i'm not the only one who thinks the customs require extra care. About the balanced armature drivers.. cmon do a search google it or whatever, you'll see that the general consensus are that they are more prone to impact damage than dynamic drivers....its mechanical science man...

And , If you havent already realised my thread title was "are custom earphones really all that fragile?" and not " Custom earphones are really fragile"

About lasting 3-5 years , I heard that directly from the representative of the company which i bought my customs from when i asked about its expected lifespan. Do i really have to find and quote user statistics for your sake? I think not , heh.
 

The thread title is fine and you may have a valid concern, but from your opening post you stated "what makes a custom anymore fragile than say the usual IEM?". After that, other false/ wrong/ inaccurate statements & assuptions followed and those, to me, fell under the category of 'misinformation'. I have seen that happen on HF time and time again, where unfounded rumours are spread and some of that information suddenly becomes facts. This is nothing against you personally.

I haven't done a Google search on the topic - and don't intend to - because I haven't felt the need to as I've never got the impression from countless threads I've read that BA drivers are more delicate/ fragile than DDs and therefore needing extra care.

About the 3-5 years lifespan of customs, I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. Besides, if it's 3-5 years, is it 3-5 years for someone who uses their customs an hour a day, 2 hours a day, 6 hours a day, 20 minutes a day, one hour a week?
 

 

[chaosfayt]

I guess i did bring in assumptions, which is why i needed to clarify , i was just not too sure about their durability.

I am actually pretty sure that the average pair of customs will survive up to at least 3 years under normal usage. Because if they usually die in about 1/2 years, then i think the point about "reliability" of a custom really becomes moot. Some people have even had their customs for nearly 10 years

 

 

[music_4321]

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Some people have even had their customs for nearly 10 years
 

Maybe because they only used them a couple ot times?  

 

[aleki]

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About the 3-5 years lifespan of customs, I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. Besides, if it's 3-5 years, is it 3-5 years for someone who uses their customs an hour a day, 2 hours a day, 6 hours a day, 20 minutes a day, one hour a week?
 

It wouldnt surprize me if the estimate has more to do with your ear changing, or "upgradeitis", than driver failure. I remember someone on here claiming their etymotic er4p is a decade old and still functioning like it did new. I'd be pretty impressed if I'm still listening to my TF10's a decade from now..

 

[Sil3nce]

 
Quote:

The thread title is fine and you may have a valid concern, but from your opening post you stated "what makes a custom anymore fragile than say the usual IEM?". After that, other false/ wrong/ inaccurate statements & assuptions followed and those, to me, fell under the category of 'misinformation'. I have seen that happen on HF time and time again, where unfounded rumours are spread and some of that information suddenly becomes facts. This is nothing against you personally.

I haven't done a Google search on the topic - and don't intend to - because I haven't felt the need to as I've never got the impression from countless threads I've read that BA drivers are more delicate/ fragile than DDs and therefore needing extra care.

About the 3-5 years lifespan of customs, I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. Besides, if it's 3-5 years, is it 3-5 years for someone who uses their customs an hour a day, 2 hours a day, 6 hours a day, 20 minutes a day, one hour a week?
 

Music I like you're style and I'm going to have to agree with you on this.

 
 

 

[JackKontney]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaosfayt /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Hmm thats interesting, I often hear that BA drivers are far more prone to damage as compared to their dynamic cousins and most people recommend taking very good care of them. I understand that reliability is indeed a factor in custom earphones but wouldn't musical accuracy and the form factor be the main one? I doubt a pair of high end IEMS in the 300-500 dollar range would be much less reliable than a pair of 1000+ dollar customs, since they both use the same "quality" of BA drivers right?

 
I was not comparing BA and dynamic drivers here. But in light of my previous post, the fact that the vast majority (well over 90%) of pro touring artists and engineers use BA IEMs suggests that any differences are non-critical in nature.
 
IEM reliability is much more about design and build quality than it is driver technology. Other key factors for pro audio users (in no particular order) include sound quality, fit/comfort, seal, isolation and service/support.