[chaosgrid]

So in comparison to aptx-LL the ULL (LC3+) codeck has been performing way better for me (less cracking/distortion sounds, better range). I cannot really talk about sound quality since I also had only the Creative Zen Hybrid Pro headphone to test and it really is not the best in sound quality department (but what can you expect for $120 which includes the BT-L3 adapter).

 

[itchyears]

So in comparison to aptx-LL the ULL (LC3+) codeck has been performing way better for me (less cracking/distortion sounds, better range). I cannot really talk about sound quality since I also had only the Creative Zen Hybrid Pro headphone to test and it really is not the best in sound quality department (but what can you expect for $120 which includes the BT-L3 adapter).

Sadly I found the ULL/LC3+ mode is slightly poorer (New firmware for Zen headphones improved sound quality Nov 2023) for overall sound quality, done further testing with my music collection today.

I think the reason why we both noticed the Zens were poor sound quality was perhaps we tried the ULL mode 1st?
if you switch to normal LC3 codec the sound quality improves a lot in music/movies etc, you can hear the volume difference.

So my dull and lifeless comment was right 1st time, Its almost as if LE audio just chopping the sound by 20-30% in LC3+/ULL mode, just to get better latency figures for gamers/movie fans. (New firmware for Zen headphones improved sound quality November 2023)

Probably also the reason why we both noticed less crackling/distortion in BT with ULL/LC3+ that's because they reduced the sound quality or almost chopping it in half to get that stability but that is just a guess it maybe still stable with LC3.

I think I will compare the latency and lipsync with LC3 not ULL mode because this is looking like I may head back to good ole wired setup.

 

[itchyears]

@chaosgrid

I did more testing, wanted to make sure my ears or gut were not off, there is something odd with Creatives new BT-L3, when LC3 Mode is set its making vocals sound more pushed on the right hand side.

Soon as I flick back to LC3+/ULL mode, the vocals are now in the middle and correct from what I can tell as well as a drop in vocal sound level and overall sound quality. With my W5 dongle its correctly centred also on adaptive.

I think its a bug could you double check this?

Good test is start of this video with Florence You've Got the Love with her vocals

 

[itchyears]

Putting some mini reviews of both the Creative BT-W5 and Creative BT-L3 bluetooth Dongles (******Note BT-L3 only sold with Creative Zen hybrid headphones******)


Creative BT-W5 adaptx hd/adaptive/sbc BT 5.3 dongle
Pros
-Very Fast pairing to Android phone, Windows PC and Creative X5 amp
-USB C connector easier to connect to mobiles/laptops with same port
-Windows software allows pairing of 4 different devices and it remembers pairing
on other devices ie remove from windows and onto Android phone it still remembers pairings.
-Windows 10, is 120ms-190ms Latency (roughly) with aptx adaptive mode
-BT performance was good, but Not 100% but very little pops,crackles and lags/audio drops id say 80%-90% better though.
-Led light to indicate BT codec type.
-Works well with Nvidia Shield 2019 with aptx adaptive
-props to @anonnexus here mentions 3 quick button presses can adjust between AptX Adaptive HQ and AptX Adaptive LL.


Cons
-USB C only, no A adapter included inbox
-Very small size, could get easily lost if traveling
-No physical button to change Codecs
-Does not work directly with LG C2 OLED TV- Audio device mode showed nothing

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Creative BT-L3 Bluetooth Adapter 5.3- LE/LC3/LC3+ or Ultra low latency (movie/gamer's) mode
(paired and supplied only with Creative Zen hybrid 5.3 LC3+ headphones) mini-review

Pros
-Even smaller then BT-W5, great for mobile phone users with the usb-C port.
-Very fast pairing to Android, Windows PC and Creative X5 amp(USBA host port)
-led light display also changes so solid white is LC3+(ULL movie/gamers) or blue for LC3.
-Confirmed the LC3 and LC3+ ultra low latency mode works fine in Windows 10 and Creative X5 amp
-Bluetooth reception and connectivity appears solid (only tested LC3+/ULL mode)
-Led light to indicate BT codec type.
-LC3 good sound quality felt similar (not verified) if not similar to Adaptive/HD
-LC3+ latency has best lip-sync performance to date with movies/YT videos (rough test appear 80-150ms but sometimes displays incorrect and worse) see below
(CG member ran better LEAudio latency test and found 20ms here)
-Works well with Nvidia Shield 2019 with LC3/LC3+/ULL
-BT performance was good, but Not 100% but very little pops,crackles and lags. (Id guesstimate 80-90% better)
-props to @anonnexus here mentions 3 quick button presses on the BT dongle can adjust between high and low latency modes (LC3+ and LC3 audio) confirmed working on BT-L4 also by myself.

Cons
-USB C only, no A adapter included in box
-Easy to drop and lose
-led light very small and dim to see what codec is in use(but you can see it on the windows based Creative App)
-no button to change between Codecs ie LC3 or LC3+/ULL mode ie music or movie/gamer/lower latency mode
-LC3+/ULL slightly poorer sound quality, felt like they cut the sound quality by 20-30% and volume even
just to get better latency. (October/November 2023 firmware for Zen headphones improved this)
-****unsure**** LC3 Mode, I think there is a bug possibly throwing off the sound quality results with LC3 Mode
the sound gets pushed more onto the right hand side, feels a balance issue have contacted Creative about it. (*****now fixed in oct/nov 2023 Zen headphone firmware***)

I do recommend the Creative BT-W5 and even the L3/L4 Bluetooth dongles, there fast, light and work well across a range of platforms from PC, Laptop, Nvidia shield and
right down to an Creative X5 dac amp. The performance and connectivity is good, I had the least amount of problems with Bluetooth crackling/popping and connectivity it was not 100% perfect (very few lags/pops/audio drops) but I feel its as good as it could be (it may not be always the case with your set up though)

Edit (October 2023) I had an issue with the Creative BT-L3 Dongle, with sound not being balanced only in LC3 mode. After 2 weeks of emailing Creative support, I found installing the creative app via the playstore, linking the Creative zen Hybrids to my mobiles inbuilt BT and then running the Creative app on the phone triggered a new firmware update which fixed the balance and sound issue in LC3. It may have done something for the hybrid zen headphones or the BT-L3 dongle, its fixed anyhow.

(BT-W5 left and BT-L3 right)

Some extra BT-L3 manual shots

Spoiler

 

[itchyears]

Creative Zen hybrid Bluetooth 5.3 Headphones LE/LC3/LC3+(ultra low latency movie/gamers mode) mini review

Pros
-Very light on head, comfortable headband cushion and pleather type pads are ok enough
-Designs decent considering cost, L/R symbols on inside of pads and even R/L logos side of headphones
-All buttons required are there, on/off, ANC, volume wheel, play/pause, mic on/off
-Led light on both sides of headphones to allow night use (not too bright or dim)
-Internal hp Voice confirms ULL or LC3 Codec once connected, how cool is that!
-Confirmed to work with BT-W5 (aptx adaptive Low/High) also works with included BT-L3(LC3/LC3+) (CG member ran better LEAudio latency test and found 20ms here)
-Bluetooth reception and connectivity appears reliable and solid (But its not 100%, I still got crackles, pops, lags but id feel 80-90% reduced) LC3 audio far better though.
-Bluetooth performance is excellent, using the remote on TV or PC, everything appears smooth
and in sync with no delay to actions (Nvidia shield and Windows 10 PC tested on)
-Sound quality overall compared to other headphones is good with the new firmware update (more clearer mids then Sony XM5s, little behind BW PX7s.)
(but again make sure you are in the right BT codec ie LC3 for higher quality sound and not in LC3+/ULL mode which is poorer.
-Durable design, these fold inwards making them much smaller good for travel, nice metal use on headband
and double screws on hinges, I think these despite being plasticy should be very durable?
-Energy saving feature can switch off if detecting nothing (but this is source dependent, its different for say Dacs/TVs etc)
-props to @anonnexus here mentions 3 quick button presses on the BT dongle can adjust between high and low latency modes (LC3+ and LC3 audio) confirmed working on BT-L4 also by myself.



Cons
-Loose clamp force, will fall off your head if in gym for example
-Ear touches inner driver which is annoying (deep 3rd party pads may fix it?)
-Pleather type pads don't fully seal around your ear so leak noise to outside a little
-Sound quality in LC3+/ULL is poorer overall then LC3, in LC3 its normal and the quality of sound is excellent.
-Appears no way to use headphones with 3.5 or usb c cable or direct wired, tried both spare cables.
-energy saver, just stays on and waste battery in certain sources so battery will drain quick (Creative X5 USBA host connected)
-BT dongle may not work with other LE audio devices or BT devices, it appears to only work and pair with the Zens (although untested)




*****Edit (October 2023) I had an issue/bug with the Creative BT-L3 Dongle, with sound not being balanced only in LC3 mode. After 2 weeks of emailing Creative support, I found installing the creative app via the playstore, linking the Creative zen Hybrids to my mobiles inbuilt BT and then running the Creative app on the phone triggered a new firmware update which fixed the balance and sound issue in LC3. It may have done something for the hybrid zen headphones or the BT-L3 dongle, its fixed anyhow.


Do I recommend these Yes 100%, there the only pair of headphones end of 2023 that has proper LE Audio Support with LC3 and LC3+ and it works well now that creative
have fixed the sound bug in LC3 codec via a firmware update via the creative app on playstore and mobile phone (inbuilt BT connection) for the Zen headphones. Good idea to also update software/firmware for the BT-L4/L5 dongle.

The Zen Hybrids Pros are excellent for gamers and movie watchers wanting low latency(LC3+ mode) and you can switch to LC3 classic for higher quality music listening.

After a months testing movies, I now just leave it on LC3+ mode the sound quality is not amazing but its more then good enough for movies and netflix and more importantly, less clicks, pops, audio lags/drops and the lipsync performance is the best I have seen, besting Sony XM5, B&W, PX7-PX8s.

The Creative hybrid Zen headphones with BT-L3 are not bad with sound quality at all, at least there clearer and more detailed then my Sony XM5s and perhaps a little behind the B&W PX7s but then they are a pair of £120 headphones.(£85 if you can get those creative sale offers)



I have emailed Creative tech team twice asking them to sell an LC3/+ BT dongle separately, the more people that email Creative here the quicker it may happen.

 

[itchyears]

Creative X5 desktop amp with USB host Mode (Bluetooth Transmitter Mode)
(works with Creative BT dongles ie BT-W5 and L3/L4)

Pro
-able to hard wire connect all devices (PC, TV, Nvidia shield/Cable-Sat TV etc) via usb/optical/phono inputs
-Works with BT-W5 creative dongle (blue light low latency mode) Aptx Adaptive confirmed
all devices paired with (PC, LG TV, Shield, Cable TV with aptx adaptive(Latency 80-220ms) (80% lag/pop/crackle free)
-Works with new BT-L3 Creative LC3 dongle (white light shows LC3+ ULL mode) on all
devices paired with (PC, LG TV, shield, Cable tv with LC3/ULL mode.Latency roughly 60-220ms) (CG member ran better latency test and found 20ms here) 90% lag/pop/crackle free in my experiences with LC3, slightly better with LC3+ at reduced audio performance.
-Able to pair directly via usb to Nvidia Shield (change sound output to Creative X5), excellent performance
and stability with Nvidia Shield and good latency achieved with LC3+ codec with Creative L3 BT adapter.


Cons
-Switching PC off kills the entire power to X5 desktop amp,, basically if you want the X5 to work (all sound inputs)
and BT transmitter mode to work 100% you need to be connected to a PC with Windows running the Creative driver/software.
-No direct input button to switch to inputs, they all work at same time
-No separate power supply, forced to use which ever USB port its connected to ie desktop PC or laptop or usb on TV, NvidiaShield etc
-USB port interference with pops/cracking, Its either poor quality amp/dac, or lack of clean power supply input, USB cables
or even the USB port on the PC. I found a PC with a good usb port which helped with less crackling/pops though but it was 20 years old.


I only recommend the Creative X5 if you can always run your Windows PC 24/7, it needs that Creative Driver and Software running otherwise
its almost an door stopper especially if using it as a BT transmitter paired with the BT-W5 or BT-L3/4. I tried sleep, deep sleep on windows and it was
still not working you need to be sitting idle in Windows 10/11 desktop always.

And I tried several work around's or hacks to get around the issue, tried console mode, connecting to Nvidia shield directly, TV USB port, Different cables
even a wall socket charger. But the features just stopped working or sound only appeared on left channel... it was buggy. Plugging it back into Windows all works fine again.

So its more of a headphone amp designed for hard wired headphones 1st more, not really an BT Transmitter with its USBA host feature.

There were also noise interference with pops/cracks and hiss when trying to use RCA or optical input and headphone jack, not sure if Creative added the full
tech in this to prevent ground loop or noise interference in general, but never had these problems with ifi and topping amps/dacs.

I think if Creative can release the X6 dac/amp with the following
-Clean seperate noise free power supply
-Clean dacs/chipsets to filter hiss, interference
-BT driver/software built into the amp, so USB A host can work even if PC switched off
-Separate input/source switch

Then it would be winner.

 

[O11111]

Some QCC5181 and QCC3086 USB Dongles may now have aptX Lossless:

The only problem is to find one as none of the dongles available on marketplaces are using these newer chips.

 

[chaosgrid]

@chaosgrid

I did more testing, wanted to make sure my ears or gut were not off, there is something odd with Creatives new BT-L3, when LC3 Mode is set its making vocals sound more pushed on the right hand side.

Soon as I flick back to LC3+/ULL mode, the vocals are now in the middle and correct from what I can tell as well as a drop in vocal sound level and overall sound quality. With my W5 dongle its correctly centred also on adaptive.

I think its a bug could you double check this?

Good test is start of this video with Florence You've Got the Love with her vocals

My unit does not have this bug it seems. I also cannot hear a significant difference between ULL and LC3.

Also, I rechecked the latency stuff and it seems my setup introduced around a 20ms latency. So all my measurements are probably 20ms inflated which seems in tune with their claimed latency of 20ms (since I measured ~45ms). With LC3 codec, I'm getting a latency of around 50ms (compared to ~20ms with LC3+/ULL).

 

[itchyears]

My unit does not have this bug it seems. I also cannot hear a significant difference between ULL and LC3.

Also, I rechecked the latency stuff and it seems my setup introduced around a 20ms latency. So all my measurements are probably 20ms inflated which seems in tune with their claimed latency of 20ms (since I measured ~45ms). With LC3 codec, I'm getting a latency of around 50ms (compared to ~20ms with LC3+/ULL).

Hmm that is different, maybe my hybrid headphones or transmitter is faulty.

To my ears at least its quite a big difference switching between LC3+ and LC3 normal even with the bug or fault, it was so bad I just now leave it on LC3 even with the bug
it still sounds clearer and more vibrant.

Thanks that is impressive 20ms though, if you do get a chance do you mind checking the latency on LC3 it would be interesting to know the latency between LC3 and LC3+.

 

[chaosgrid]

Oh maybe my last sentence wasnt so clear: I measured 30ms between LC3 and LC3+ (ULL). So, at least with this Creative headset, the latency of "normal" LE audio seems to be 50-60 ms which is pretty nice

Lip-sync should be no problem with such a latency, gaming might be where you would switch to LC3+/ULL.

 

[itchyears]

Oh maybe my last sentence wasnt so clear: I measured 30ms between LC3 and LC3+ (ULL). So, at least with this Creative headset, the latency of "normal" LE audio seems to be 50-60 ms which is pretty nice

Lip-sync should be no problem with such a latency, gaming might be where you would switch to LC3+/ULL.

My bad I misread it, very good latency scores regardless.

I have been using the Creative Zens with my L3 dongle connected to my Nvidia shield and lipsync has been fine with LC3, even with that sound issue I have.

I have that Chinese LC3 BT transmitter/Receiver due soon so will be able to check if that sound issue is normal or not.

It would have been awesome if the Zen hybrid had a button on the side of the hps to switch between LE and LE+.

 

[helmutcheese]

What’s new in Win 11 Can Build 25977​

Improving accessibility with Bluetooth® LE Audio​

We’re excited to announce that Windows has taken a significant step forward in accessibility by supporting the use of hearing aids equipped with the latest Bluetooth® Low Energy Audio (LE Audio) technology. Customers who use these new hearing aids are now able to directly pair, stream audio, and take calls on their Windows PCs with LE Audio support.

This feature is available on Windows devices with our recently announced Bluetooth® LE Audio support, which will be a growing market of devices in the coming months. In upcoming flights, we will be introducing additional capabilities to the hearing aids experience on Windows, such as controlling audio presets directly within Windows settings. Stay tuned for more details about these new capabilities as they roll out.

FEEDBACK: Please file feedback in Feedback Hub (WIN + F) under Devices and Drives > Bluetooth – Audio quality, glitches, choppiness and stuttering.
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsex...intuitive-user-experience/#bluetooth-le-audio




DeividA_Intel
Moderator
‎10-06-2021 01:58 PM
3,153 Views


I would like to let you know that the Intel® Wi-Fi 6E AX210 (Gig+) support LE (Low Energy Audio) Audio & the LC3 Audio Codec as you can see in the following link:

- https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/wireless/wi-fi-6e-ax210-module-brief.html

 

[itchyears]

That is good news for LE audio, its taken a long time but it looks like support for it is slowly making its way to consumers which is long overdue.

I did a quick check on the current windows builds that just came out:
Added Oct. 10. 2023 22631 (23H2) EP (Retail Channel):
Version: 2355.1.1

Sounds like its a bigger windows 11 upgrade, maybe due next year maybe some preview/betas might be there.

 

[itchyears]

Eppfun LE Audio (LC3 only) Bluetooth transmitter/Receiver Review

Another long shot try...


Pros
-Small and light
-mobile device, has small battery (2hr battery) can be powered via usb c cable.
-Sound quality is correct left/right balance wise in LC3 mode unlike my Creative BT-L3 dongle(my creative dongle could be faulty)
-3.5mm input/output so good for any device, TV, bluray player etc


Cons
-Can double up as a USB Audio Sound device and via usb C cable and an BT dongle for Windows 10 PC, Nvidia shield (confirmed working) just change sound
output but.... I ran into pops/clicks audio lags (could be usb port or cable related) also worse lag and latency overall then Creative BT-L3, BT-L3 is much much better.
-3.5mm input/output will introduce the background hiss
-Auto sleep in 5 minutes, if device not connected ie headphones. So prepare to keep
hitting the on and off button on a regular basis!
-Latency is poor 260-280ms roughly in LE audio compared to Creatives L4 dongle 40-50ms.
-No codec button to change to LC3+ (edit checked specs says LC3 only?) bit misleading
since picture on aliexpress shows both codecs LC3/LC3+ is supported.



I don't advise the Eppfunn LC3 bluetooth transmitter/Receiver, its latency feels a tad higher
then Creatives L3/4 dongles, but on the other hand I understand it if you do buy it since no
other decent LE audio dongles exist.

The eppfun 5.3 LE audio gets lags, pops, crackles and make this unusable for my case (might be
different for yourself might also be USB port and usb cable related) while the creative L3/L4 is 90% lag, pop and crackle free.

Eppfun sometimes do 20% discounts, making it £12-13 so maybe worth a try at that price.

Hopefully in 2024 other manufacturers will better adopt LE audio support, devices and separate
purchasable dongles.

I have emailed eppfunn requesting if they can release a USB variant of an LE based Bluetooth dongle
but with LC3 and LC3+ support.

 

[itchyears]

Bluetooth troubleshooting checklist for when you get Interference, pops, crackles, clicks, audio drops, stuttering, complete audio loss etc

-Try a different Bluetooth Codec (SBC, Aptx LL,adaptive,HD, LC3 or LC3+) the newer LC3 and LC3+ claims better connectivity/stability.
-Disconnect from your BT device and reconnect
-Try moving closer to your device you are connecting to or extend the BT dongle/Transmitter closer to your device ie USB cable (2.0 shielded better)
-remove any obstacles between you and BT device, try to keep clear line of sight.
-Switch off Wireless devices and BT devices near you and re-test
-Switch off entire Wireless Router or Wireless hubs/access points or Wifi boosters and re-test
-Try to locate other Wireless devices (Wifi devices, wireless cameras, Wireless keyboard/mouse etc) Switch off and retry
-Try to reduce Wireless devices switch to hardwired Ethernet cable instead.
-BT shares the 2.4ghz band same as your Wireless router, so try to move your Wireless devices to 5ghz or new 6ghz(wifi 6E/7)
-Try disabling multi-point via app/software or simply disable all other Bluetooth connections so only 1 single BT connection is made
-Switch your devices to Bluetooth 5.3 (shown to get better connectivity/stability) over previous BT gens.
-Try alternative Bluetooth devices, some Bluetooth headphones perform more reliable and better (example Sony XM5 headphones good BT chipset imo)
-See if you can use separate standalone BT transmitters/Receivers such as Creative X5, fiio btr 30 pro or more, there maybe others
but its very limited atm only 2-3 I believe are done well (end of 2023), id bet there maybe more demand in the future.
-Try different BT-Dongles, if the Creative BT-W5 is giving pops/clicks etc try the Chinese Dongles such as KB8P and KB9P from aliexpress or Amazon.
You may need to find one that works well with your own setup and devices.
-Disable anything non essentials, Microphones, Lines ins, Aux ins.
-Try different USB ports. Different USB ports can cause more interference then others see here:
https://www.rshtech.com/blog/how-to-avoid-the-usb30-and-24-ghz-devices-interference-2
-I tried 3 different desktop Pcs and the newer ones within 4-7 years all had usb interference, an 20 year old PC dumped in attic however
the usb 2.0 port worked best, like 80-90% improved with less pops/clicks.(This does not mean usb 2.0 fixes it! tried it on another Pc with 2.0 port didnt work)
its been mentioned USB 3.0 can be more problematic and interferes with 2.4ghz. Also found my USB C port to be similar.
-Try usb ifi purifier 3, or check on ali express for USB filters (£3-4) they may filter or improve usb issues also (not tested myself)
-Different Power supplies also can provide cleaner power.
-Take your BT devices ie headphones and phone to a different area and re-try, see if the problems persist or improve.
-Disable Noise cancellation feature, EQ modes to OFF and Microphone on your headphones, (nc off fixed pops/clicks on my sony XM5s)


*****update****
-Try shielded (foil/aluminium) and google Shielded cables for USB 2.0, 3.0 (2.0 appears better) and even Shielded hdmi cables, you can get triple shielded hdmi
cables from amazon for £12-15 the Ibra hdmi 2.1 orange cable is decent and triple shielded.
-Separate and isolate your electrical devices (TVs, Nvidia shield, PC etc) with its own separate power point and avoid using power strip bars or multi power adapters.
-Good article here regarding Copper based hdmi cables and fiber optic cables, fiber optic cables offer better protection against EMI and other interference over Copper cables.
-Discovered optical cables (audio, picture, usb data) are less prone to EMI so optical cabling much better, ie hdmi fiber cables and optical audio for USB find ones
with a ferrite which helps prevent EMI also mentioned here
-Use Optical output (PC, TV, Console etc) it offers better latency performance then USB, mentioned here
-Try using BT usb or wireless dongles directly into the USB port without usb extension cables or even with USB C>A or A>C converters, I found direct connections
appear to be a bit more reliable.
-Switched my headphones to 2.4ghz Wifi Wireless based Artic Pro wireless, all BT issues gone and latency improved and lipsync fixed. No pops/cracks and audio drops.
other 2.4ghz wifi wireless based headphones should be just as good if not better.

If anyone has any other tweaks or tips on improving BT technology, mention it and ill try to add it on this list.