[rlw6534]

Yup I saw that article and fair points he could be right, I don't want to jump the gun and say LE/LC3/LC3+ are going to fix anything at this point but it sounds like a step in the right direction at least.

There is another article somewhere saying its hype too, but when he tested it he suggested he was not sure if it was using the right codec even since no way to confirm it.

The article I linked from android authority actually tested it a bit better during gaming session and noticed 19ms so when he fired his gun it was instant, so fingers crossed.

Should find out in the nxt few weeks from people getting LE/LC3/LC3+ enabled BT devices and dongles so real world test will show if its any good.

There is a rumor Android 14 release is coming out tomorrow, it may support LE/LC3 also.

I'm not sure that LC3+ over bluetooth is much of an improvement, I'm under the impression that it requires different wireless technologies with more bandwidth for hi-res. Unfortunately, there isn't much info out there on the details (at least that I can understand).

 

[O11111]

it may support LE/LC3 also.

Android has LE Audio support since 13. It's mostly about hardware. Only relatively recent SoCs have it.

I'm not sure that LC3+ over bluetooth is much of an improvement

LC3plus HR is objectively better than other codecs, at least according to tests by Fraunhofer (but why they would say anything else). LC3/plus are limited to 20 kHz in bandwidth, one of the main differences between HR and "normal" modes is this exact limit. Oh, and LC3plus (not HR though) has been working over Bluetooth for few years already. Have you heard about LLAC?

hi-res

But why? Humans can't hear such high frequencies, so hi-res lossless is simply a waste of precious bandwidth. Over Bluetooth it's just not possible (unless you'll count HS, which is more like WiFi).

 

[itchyears]

I'm not sure that LC3+ over bluetooth is much of an improvement, I'm under the impression that it requires different wireless technologies with more bandwidth for hi-res. Unfortunately, there isn't much info out there on the details (at least that I can understand).

Yeah I think we all hear where you are coming, LE Audios LC3/+ has hype around it and has done for a while its just manufacturers have not been able to support it to see if its any good till now.

And now we have the LC3 HR to hopefully not make it even more confusing, wishful thinking here but if a device can support LE Audio.... maybe it can support LC3/LC3+/LC3+HR.

 

[itchyears]

Philips unveils Fidelio L4 with Bluetooth Headphones with LC3, LE Audio and Sony LDAC support Due soon
Spotted here

Trusted review here

I like this part from their early thoughts:

Features​

• aptX Bluetooth ditched in favour of LDAC and LC3
• Adaptive Noise-cancellation
• 40-hour battery life

It’s also dropped one feature in particular – aptX support. Qualcomm’s aptX and aptX-HD have been banished and replaced with Sony’s LDAC. Bluetooth 5.3 support also includes LE Audio and the new LC3 audio codec that promises “genuine” hi-res audio with 32-bit/48kHz content. We shall see if that lives up to its claim soon enough. Hi-Res Audio is also possible via the supplied USB-C cable.


I like Philips approach with these new BT headphones, getting the basics right.... Connectivity, Codec support and sound quality improvement.

The Bose QuietComfort Ultra Headphones sound more like a refresh product, with no new drivers so tad disappointing.

 

[O11111]

And now we have the LC3 HR to hopefully not make it even more confusing, wishful thinking here but if a device can support LE Audio.... maybe it can support LC3/LC3+/LC3+HR

LC3plus HR is A2DP only at the moment.
This is confusing without any doubts, so I've tried to find actual differences between LC3 and LC3plus. There are quite a few of them.

LC3 has 7.5 and 10 ms frame sizes, meaning codec latency is 12.5 ms (11.5 for 7.5 ms frame)
LC3plus has 2.5, 5 and 10 ms frame sizes and the total delay is 5, 7.5 and 12.5 ms correspondingly.
LC3 and LC3plus with 10 ms frames are fully compatible with each other (believe me, I've tried that). Apart from this (and different constants for different frame sizes), they seem to be the same use algorithm for encoding and decoding. This information was enough to make compliant LC3plus decoder from LC3 one, so it's pretty accurate.

Another difference between LC3 and LC3plus is that LC3 is mandatory for LE Audio. And LC3plus is not. But once again, main difference is a bit lower latency. 6.5 ms at best, which would be almost impossible to notice.

LC3plus HR mode is another story. It is fully incompatible with both LC3 and LC3plus non-HR. Main difference is the bandwidth (there are other minor differences, i.e. MDCT windowing function and some other constants): LC3plus HR always encodes frequencies up to the theoretical limit (24/48 kHz depending on the sampling rate), LC3/plus will limit it to 20 kHz (or ~18.4 at 44.1 kHz sampling rate).
I can hear frequencies up to ~20-21 kHz (it's quite hard to say the exact limit, so maybe it's a bit higher), but noticing the actual difference in music just isn't possible. Another good thing is bitrate. It can go up to 1000/1200/1344 kbps (for 10/5/2.5 ms frames).

The comparison between different codecs:

So LC3plus HR is definitely better than 16 bit PCM and is a bit better than 21 bit PCM.

 

[itchyears]

Avantree Relay 5.3 mini Review

Saw a special offer so figured will try it, these use a 3.5mm stereo jack connection to your devices (TVs, PCs, Laptops etc)
so tried it with my LG C2 TV set with its headphone jack and also my PC with separate soundcard and 3.5mm output.



Pros
-Really small and portable, has tiny battery which can charge quick
-No Auto off/sleep function so won't go to sleep in the middle of an listening session
-Latency had decent enough numbers under aptx adaptive (120ms desktop PC and 265ms on Wired headphone TV output)
-Decent speed in connectivity literally seconds.
-volume separate on/off buttons
-On and off button



Cons
-Bluetooth connection dropped multiple times during use (TV and PC) and only 1 metre away from device
-Device auto pair feature does not work next day, even last Pair feature button
fails to connect forcing a complete on and off button reset to fix BT re-pairing
and re connection to kick in.
-Bluetooth signal dropped randomly while watching TV or YT on PC few times.
-No buttons to change to separate bluetooth codecs example if you want aptx hd or adaptive
no physical button or app to select any codec so forced with the auto selection.
-No led light change to indicate Codec selection


Do I advise the Avantree relay 5.3 Bluetooth dongle, no its still unstable
and unreliable in general use, it wasn't actually a bad device since the latency
numbers were decent much better then the eppfunn or Chinese BT receivers/transmitters I
have tested but having to constantly switch on and off button just to re-connect to
the Bluetooth headphones is too much headache, really who has time to do that?

I can see Avantree engineers knew this could be a potential issue and its mentioned in the manual
which is why they have built a last device re-connect button but even that button/feature does not work
forcing a complete on and off power reset each time the connection or sound drops.

This device is more designed for in flight/travel situations but I figured since Avantree
tend to be bit more reliable and better to give it a long shot.

 

[itchyears]

Cleaned up my main Post here with reviews and important post from other members also added it to my signature so its easy to be referred back, added mandatory jackie chan meme

Sadly I missed the 20% Creative discount offer on their new Hybrid BT headphones with their new Creative LC3 BT dongle with LE/LC3 support, I was trying to wait for Creative
to sort out my Credits! Hopefully @chaosgrid can let us know if its any good latency or sound quality wise with LC3 codec support.

 

[chaosgrid]

I was also going to order off those Creative Zen Hybrid Pro Classics while they got the 20% discount offer they also got a 30 day trial so might as well take advantage of it.

Are you using the nullvoxpopuli latency checker website to get those latency numbers?

My latency checking method has evolved a bit. I used to just watch the audio latency Youtube test video(s), but now I actually use Voicemeeter Potato and output my audio signal to 2 outputs: one wired 0-latency reference speaker and the (wireless) device I want to test.
Then I listen to audio latency test videos again and use Voicemeeter's delay setting on my main reference 0-delay audio output to adjust the delay until it matches the device I am testing. I think this way I have an accuracy of approximately +- 15msec.
I think I could improve this methodology by actually using a microphone and then measure the time precisely but for now, +- 15msec is enough accuracy for me

Once I have the Creative headset with the claimed 20ms latency, I might do a precise test. Btw. I got the 20% deal, I wonder how good the headset actually is.. might be a steal considering the specs

 

[itchyears]

My latency checking method has evolved a bit. I used to just watch the audio latency Youtube test video(s), but now I actually use Voicemeeter Potato and output my audio signal to 2 outputs: one wired 0-latency reference speaker and the (wireless) device I want to test.
Then I listen to audio latency test videos again and use Voicemeeter's delay setting on my main reference 0-delay audio output to adjust the delay until it matches the device I am testing. I think this way I have an accuracy of approximately +- 15msec.
I think I could improve this methodology by actually using a microphone and then measure the time precisely but for now, +- 15msec is enough accuracy for me

Once I have the Creative headset with the claimed 20ms latency, I might do a precise test. Btw. I got the 20% deal, I wonder how good the headset actually is.. might be a steal considering the specs

Ahh much more better testing method, those YT latency test or bouncing balls I find them bit odd the ball always seems to hit flush with the noise or on zero so tend to prefer that nullvoxpopuli latency checker, But yeah its not always reliable I run it 3 times and restart the website and then work out a rough average.

I also run this YT lipsync cartoon as a real world test


I did see some Creative previous model hybrid BT headphone reviews and they said it wasn't too bad sound quality wise so yeah might as well give it a shot.

I got my eye on the new Bose and I think the Philips L4 looks decent its sound signature sounds like my cup of tea clear mids, slightly bright uppers for better female vocals, both should get LE/LC3 codec support also.

I will email Creative support to find out if they are releasing that BT-L3 Bluetooth LE Audio Transmitter separately or not.

 

[rlw6534]

I have a quick question for you guys... I have a MacBook Air M2, Creative BT-W5 and a FiiO BTR7. Which would be the best sound quality, AptX HD or AptX Adaptive in HQ mode? Note that the BTR7 does not support 24/96 AptX Adaptive, only 24/48. I suspect Adaptive is best but thought I would ask the gurus...

 

[helmutcheese]

Hard to say in real blind testing not on paper as aptX HD has a higher bitrate but aptX Adaptive claims to more efficient to the same or better at lower bitrates.

I doubt they will be much in it if listening to files that are 24/48.

 

[rlw6534]

Hard to say in in real blind testing not on paper as aptX HD has a higher bitrate but aptX Adaptive claims to more efficient to the same or better at lower bitrates.

I doubt they will be much in it if listening to files that are 24/48.

I can't really tell the difference but wanted to choose the best, at least on paper... Thanks!

 

[itchyears]

Disappointing news from Creative labs team



Thank you for contacting Creative Labs.

Currently, there are no plans to sell the BT-L3 and BT-L4. We appreciate your feedback and will pass it along to our sales and marketing team for their consideration.

We also recommend that you subscribe to our newsletter at http://creative.com/newsletter to receive the latest updates on our products, product availability, and promotions.

If you require further assistance, please reply to this email and we will get back to you.

Regards,
Rj
Creative Labs Pte Ltd
Worldwide Customer Response


So no plans to even sell the BT-L3/4 BT dongles basically, only way to get it is to buy their zen hybrid headphones.

Also currently no plans to update the BT-W5 or any of their existing line up BT dongles with LE audio/LC3.

 

[O11111]

Also currently no plans to update the BT-W5 or any of their existing line up BT dongles with LE audio/LC3.

They just wouldn't be able to do it even if they wanted to. Initially QCC3056 and QCC5151 were supposed to be capable of LE Audio. It's not clear what happened exactly, but it appears that they turned out to be not (Guessing some hardware issue. Or final spec changed much compared to drafts). Qualcomm never released firmware with LE Audio for 5x series (only 8x have full support, not even 7x as it seems). There is some kind of LC3 encoder and decoder in 5x firmware though.

 

[itchyears]

Bit of a desperate long shot to get them to add LC3

They added the BT-L3 with LC3 support dongle support in the creative app update this morning... yet don't sell them separately lol