[kalo86]

Ok thank you, I'll try these options

Hi, since you have the DX220, remember that you can use only up to DSD64 because the CPU cannot handle the realtime conversion up to DSD128.
And remember as well to enable the multithreaded processing.

 

[dmitrykos]

[All to DSD] is renamed to [PCM to DSD] because in case of source DSD files nothing is converted to DSD again, so new name is less misleading.

@kalo86, in my tests DX220 can handle [PCM to DSD] -> DSD64 without Multithreading option if [64-bit Processing] is Off. But if [64-bit Processing] is On then yes, Multithreading must be switched On. ARM64 apk is a must for this mode and also the latest firmware which increased CPU frequency to 1 GHz from 0.8 GHz.

 

[kalo86]

Indeed, I use Neutron in 64-bit mode, that's why I use the Multithreading enabled.
Anyway I am trying to convert apart my preferred audio tracks (usually wave or flac format) to DSD128 because I want to save some battery life and heat generation.
It is not worth converting everytime the track.
Big thank you for the great app!

 

[bobbooo]

[All to DSD] is renamed to [PCM to DSD] because in case of source DSD files nothing is converted to DSD again, so new name is less misleading.

@kalo86, in my tests DX220 can handle [PCM to DSD] -> DSD64 without Multithreading option if [64-bit Processing] is Off. But if [64-bit Processing] is On then yes, Multithreading must be switched On. ARM64 apk is a must for this mode and also the latest firmware which increased CPU frequency to 1 GHz from 0.8 GHz.

As an update to my previous issue, I've noticed it's not just pure noise/static that Neutron plays when enabling All to DSD (now PCM to DSD) on my Snapdragon Samsung Galaxy S10e (G9700, Hong Kong version). In fact, it seems like the original music track is possibly playing properly at the same level as with PCM to DSD off, but with a high level of added noise that perceptually masks the music quite a lot (I can still hear the music underneath all the noise). This suggests to me that PCM to DSD could actually be made to work on this device if the noise can be eliminated. Could you please investigate this issue further and try to fix it?

 

[kalo86]

As an update to my previous issue, I've noticed it's not just pure noise/static that Neutron plays when enabling All to DSD (now PCM to DSD) on my Snapdragon Samsung Galaxy S10e (G9700, Hong Kong version). In fact, it seems like the original music track is possibly playing properly at the same level as with PCM to DSD off, but with a high level of added noise that perceptually masks the music quite a lot (I can still hear the music underneath all the noise). This suggests to me that PCM to DSD could actually be made to work on this device if the noise can be eliminated. Could you please investigate this issue further and try to fix it?

I am not experiencing any static noise with or without the PCM to DSD function.
Probably it's your smartphone behaving differently under different CPU loads and creating some static noise.
This is totally absent in my iBasso DX220.

 

[bobbooo]

I am not experiencing any static noise with or without the PCM to DSD function.
Probably it's your smartphone behaving differently under different CPU loads and creating some static noise.
This is totally absent in my iBasso DX220.

I'm aware that this is an issue Neutron has specifically with the S10 (and possibly other Samsung phones). I doubt it's a CPU load issue as the S10 series have much more powerful CPUs than your iBasso DX220 for example, and the noise does not change when turning the more demanding 64-bit processing on or off. Strangely, the noise does get slightly quieter when turning on DSD128 in the PCM to DSD sub-menu. The audio chip in my phone is the Qualcomm WCD9341, which does have native DSD64 and DSD128 support, so it should work.

 

[kalo86]

Ok that your smartphone is more powerful than the DX220, but the DX220 is well optimized in the electronic boards for the best audio quality in a mobile equipment. The smartphone has other goals, we are talking about apples and oranges.

 

[dmitrykos]

The audio chip in my phone is the Qualcomm WCD9341, which does have native DSD64 and DSD128 support, so it should work.

Besides onboard DAC the firmware must be compatible with passing DSD data from the application layer to the DAC. With S10 firmware it is a problem because no special to DSD transport format is exposed (for example LG V30+ exposes it explicitly that made it possible to pass native DSD to onboard ESS DAC). If DoP format results in silence or noise then nothing can be done unless Samsung adds possibility to send native DSD data to the onboard hardware.

 

[bobbooo]

Besides onboard DAC the firmware must be compatible with passing DSD data from the application layer to the DAC. With S10 firmware it is a problem because no special to DSD transport format is exposed (for example LG V30+ exposes it explicitly that made it possible to pass native DSD to onboard ESS DAC). If DoP format results in silence or noise then nothing can be done unless Samsung adds possibility to send native DSD data to the onboard hardware.

What I don't understand is, it's not only noise - I can hear the original music playing (at the same volume as normal) underneath the noise at the same time when PCM to DSD is on. Doesn't this mean the DSD data is in fact being sent to the DAC? And so the extra noise could be eliminated somehow?

 

[kalo86]

What I don't understand is, it's not only noise - I can hear the original music playing (at the same volume as normal) underneath the noise at the same time when PCM to DSD is on. Doesn't this mean the DSD data is in fact being sent to the DAC? And so the extra noise could be eliminated somehow?

If you want to enjoy the extra benefit of the DSD, please take into account to have also a good and dedicated hardware which is capable of managing this technology in the proper way.
Every car in this world has 4 wheels, but the racing cars are quite different right?
There are DAPs which are affected by missing ground isolation, or act differently (producing noise) when your smartphone is very close to the DAP.
It's not easy to produce an electronic board which is able to filter everything and when you are close to the perfection it means that you have to spend money into a dedicated product.
Smartphone are too generic and not at all focused on the audio quality.

 

[superuser1]

It would be very cool to have a update notifier on the Pay Pro version. @dmitrykos please make it happen

 

[bobbooo]

If you want to enjoy the extra benefit of the DSD, please take into account to have also a good and dedicated hardware which is capable of managing this technology in the proper way.
Every car in this world has 4 wheels, but the racing cars are quite different right?
There are DAPs which are affected by missing ground isolation, or act differently (producing noise) when your smartphone is very close to the DAP.
It's not easy to produce an electronic board which is able to filter everything and when you are close to the perfection it means that you have to spend money into a dedicated product.
Smartphone are too generic and not at all focused on the audio quality.

The Snapdragon Samsung Galaxy S10 series (and many other smartphones) are likely audibly transparent, so there is usually no need to buy overpriced standalone DAPs like your iBasso DX220, as there will be no audible improvement in most cases. Here's a comparison between measurements of the Snapdragon S10's performance:

And the iBasso DX200 (very similar to your DX220 with the same DAC):

As you can see, the iBasso actually has higher (worse) THD than the S10, with a 3rd (and other odd-order) harmonic spikes (absent in the S10) - distortion which is much more dissonant to the ear than even (e.g. 2nd) order spikes. It's a myth that in order to get good audio playback fidelity these days you need to spend hundreds or even $1000 (e.g. the DX220) on a DAP, when most people already have a smartphone in their pocket that is equal (or as can be seen here in some areas better) in audio performance.

Anyway, let's get back on topic, to the actual cause of my issue - I've tested that my S10e can playback DSD128 tracks, which it does perfectly using another app (HiByMusic player in 'Native DSD mode'), so this looks like an issue specifically Neutron has with the S10's firmware (the hardware is definitely not the problem, being a high-fidelity audio chip capable of up to 384kHz/32bit playback, native DSD, DoP, as well as DXD support, just like the iBasso).

My question, to the Neutron developer @dmitrykos, remains - why can I hear the original music playing underneath the noise when PCM to DSD is on? Doesn't this mean the DSD data is in fact being sent to the DAC? And so the extra noise could be eliminated? If this info helps, I've confirmed the same noise + music in the background issue occurs when playing an actual DSD128 (and DSD64) track through Neutron with 'DSD, DSD over PCM (DoP)' on but 'PCM to DSD' off (and 'Native DSD' both on and off, so neither native DSD playback nor DoP work properly).

 

[kalo86]

Probably in the future everyone will have a smartphone as DAP, it would be fantastic for me. I really hope it!

 

[buonassi]

Smartphones (v30 etc) aren't bad, they're quite good - very good actually. But saying there is no audible difference with a TOTL purpose built player is just nonsense.

 

[rjoudrey]

Smartphones (v30 etc) aren't bad, they're quite good - very good actually. But saying there is no audible difference with a TOTL purpose built player is just nonsense.

Listen before you speak. I have a V30 paired with a Cayin C5 Amp. I would put this combo against any sub $1000 DAP. My cost $250.