[zpatzer]

hey guys,
I have etymotics e4-rs earphones. Pretty sure I have a ****ty soundcard on my thinkpad x61, but I don't know how to check. I also have an ipod video 5th gen. I'm looking at the mini3 and total bithead. Not sure what gain is appropriate as well, I'm guessing 3. My budget is around 100 bucks. From what I know, getting an amp is useless since my other hardware provides limiting factors.
Any help would be appreciated.

 

[zpatzer]

bump

 

[ephemere]

I think the need for an amp for the ER-4S -- or for that matter headphones in general -- is greatly overestimated. The iPod video drives the ER-4S to ear-splitting volume levels well below the maximum volume setting. Clearly, it has enough juice. Why do you feel you need an amp?

 

[Spyro]

I am not an amp guy and rarely ever recommend amps but among the dozens and dozens of top IEM's up and down the line ER4S is probably the #1 IEM you would want to power with an amp. It's 75 ohms and sensitivity is not suited for portables. ER4P even requires an amp IMHO to help with the anemic bass. Etys are far too thin sounding when not properly amped.

 

[zpatzer]

I am leaning towards the mini3, but I don't think it could do me much good with out an ipod line out dock.

 

[mvw2]

Distorted loud and controlled loud are two different things. Just because the SPL is there doesn't mean it has enough wattage. I'll agree that amperage may be slightly exaggerated at times in the fact that gains from amping is not vast and poses minimal gains for light to medium listening levels. However when played loud, amping can significantly improve the sound on some headphones. I've only used a couple headphones where amping really served no purpose beyond what the laptop or portable device could output. Everything else I've run benefits noticeably from increased amperage at moderate to loud levels. Most of the gain is simply from improved control of the bass range and dynamics. The ER4S does improve from this as well, but it's not an absolutely needed thing. It won't make or break the end sound, but you do need to realize you will be limiting yourself by not amping them and some of the distortion and tonal brightening is from this inadequacy.

There are tons of amps available. Have your pick. A lot of them will sound very similar to each other and even a cheapy like the $25 FiiO E5 works great. Spend a lot of time in the portable amp forum section. Spend a couple weeks reading and comparing the options. There's a number of large group comparisons, and a lot of comments and reviews on the gambit of products available. I started with the FiiO E5. My bro runs the NuForce amp. I now own a Corda 2Move. Improvements can be noticeable but not dramatic. You really just want a product with adequate wattage capability and that does not color (or color the wrong way if color is desired) or add noise. Something as cheap and simple as the E5 does this pretty well, but there are a lot of options out there and options with more power. You may prefer coloration and try to step to a warmer amp, maybe even a full on tube amp, to get a certain presentation. I will reiterate that amps alone do not drastically change the sound of a headphone. Tube is the exception as it is a completely different design from most solid state amps. Simply don't expect miracles to happen. If you don't like the headphone, you're typically better off buying a more appropriate headphone rather then trying to fix it with a colored amp. EQing will also do a lot more for you then swapping amps. Also note that not all amps are created equal, not just in power but in what they actually do. For example, the E5 has a bass boost switch that bumps up the low end some. Some amps may have permanent EQing built in. Amps may incorporate cross talk between the left and right channels, maybe switchable like the 2Move or permanent in some form. Realize there may be underlying things going on that you should be aware of. Most simple amps are simple though. All they do is take the signal and boost it, a rather simple and straight forward process. About the only thing that goes wrong is the addition of noise from internal interference. Amps can become quite advanced too, both in features and circuitry and some aspects might be desirable.

 

[ephemere]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvw2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Distorted loud and controlled loud are two different things. Just because the SPL is there doesn't mean it has enough wattage.

True. But as it turns out, the OP's ipod video does in fact have enough wattage. More than enough. By all means, get an amp if you want an analog stage that has a different sonic signature (second-order harmonic distortion from tubes, etc), but don't fool yourself into thinking that the ipod video doesn't have enough clean power to drive the ER-4S -- that is, unless your hearing is shot and you need much higher SPLs than I do.

To the OP: Use your own ears. Borrow an amp if you can and experiment for yourself. See if it's worth the money before you buy.

 

[Antony6555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephemere /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the need for an amp for the ER-4S -- or for that matter headphones in general -- is greatly overestimated. The iPod video drives the ER-4S to ear-splitting volume levels well below the maximum volume setting. Clearly, it has enough juice. Why do you feel you need an amp?

I agree with this 100%. You can amp if you want to color the sound in some way. However, it will not bring objective improvement the way that amping a full-size headphone will. I used my at-home amp, a headfive with the er-4s and the improvements I perceived were minuscule.

I think that a lot of the portable amping for iems that goes on on head-fi is sort of silly. If you want a different sound, I'd recommend just getting a different iem (I think this makes the most sense.) Or if you want to color your er-4S sound in a different way, a different source. Either way, it makes more sense to me than lugging around an amp.

 

[spiftacu1ar]

START RANT
This potzer (the OP) is a friend of mine, and I have been trying to tell him its unneccesary. He doesn't want an amp to make it sound better, he decided he wanted an amp, and then bought phones which he thought could be amped. He started by asking me what amp to use on some $50 pair of Koss phones, and I said none, so he went down the stickied list, and found the cheapest IEM that said an amp is reccomended (fyi, these IEM are about 2 times better than anything he has owned before), and now is looking for an amp to go with it...

I keep telling him its unneccesary, and he should actually listen to the unamped phones first (which he hasn't, just ordered them when he made this thread), but he won't listen to me because i own an amp (the mini3 i built myself for my HD595's). I told him its different for full-size phones, but since he won't listen to me I told him to post here (since you guys are all about 10 times more knowledgable than me about this)
THANKS ANTONY6555 and EPHEMERE for making my same point. I'm trying to get him not to waste money, he's jsut caught the headphone fever.
END RANT

THe mini3 is a pretty good phone, but I don't think you need it with IEM's. Your money would be better spend getting better phones or simple DAC / new sound card. A cheap audigy will be 10 times better than the mobo sound you have now, although not perfect.

 

[Happy Camper]

I use the Xin Macro 4 but you could use a mini. Buy used unless you use a credit card. Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong wait times.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephemere /img/forum/go_quote.gif True. But as it turns out, the OP's ipod video does in fact have enough wattage. More than enough. By all means, get an amp if you want an analog stage that has a different sonic signature (second-order harmonic distortion from tubes, etc), but don't fool yourself into thinking that the ipod video doesn't have enough clean power to drive the ER-4S -- that is, unless your hearing is shot and you need much higher SPLs than I do.

The iPod doesn't have enough power to drive the ER4S. I listen to my iPod (Classic, but it used to be a 5th gen) with my ER4S without an amp all the time. It can handle it just fine- but it sounds much better with an amp. Much better. The highs are clearer, the midrange is punchier, and the bass is fuller. The purpose of the amplifier isn't to make it lower, it's to create a lower Zout (i.e. greater current availability) for the headphones. It's not necessary, but to say it doesn't improve the sound is misleading. Unequivocally- an amp improves how the ER4S sounds.


Quote:

Originally Posted by spiftacu1ar /img/forum/go_quote.gif START RANT I told him its different for full-size phones, but since he won't listen to me I told him to post here (since you guys are all about 10 times more knowledgable than me about this)

Why is it different for full-sized headphones? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Headphones are presented as a dynamic load to whatever they're connected to- IEMs, or full sized- I don't see why one should be fundamentally different than the other. An amplifier with a nice low Zout is going to have plenty of current to drive the headphones at the various volumes without distorting.


Quote:

THe mini3 is a pretty good phone, but I don't think you need it with IEM's. Your money would be better spend getting better phones or simple DAC / new sound card. A cheap audigy will be 10 times better than the mobo sound you have now, although not perfect.

The Mini^3 is a pretty good portable amplifier. I definitely think that it's worth getting to get the most out of IEMs in the category of ER4S. That said, I would improve the sound card out of that laptop before I spent money on an amp.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyro /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not an amp guy and rarely ever recommend amps but among the dozens and dozens of top IEM's up and down the line ER4S is probably the #1 IEM you would want to power with an amp. It's 75 ohms and sensitivity is not suited for portables. ER4P even requires an amp IMHO to help with the anemic bass. Etys are far too thin sounding when not properly amped.

It's 100 ohms at 1khz, not 75 (Etymotic Research, Inc. - ER-4 - Technical Specifications, and I think it is fine for portables without an amp. They'll sound a lot better than crappy headphones- whether the ER4S are amped or not. I don't agree that they need an amp, but they are definitely improved with an amp, but then all amps are- including crappy headphones. I agree though, that Etys are somewhat thin sounding without an amp.

 

[zpatzer]

Rather than get a sound card, wouldn't it be better to just get an amp with DAC, like ibasso D2+boa

 

[ephemere]

The ER4S requires exactly the same current as the ER4P to achieve the same SPL. Higher voltage, but equal current. Ohm's Law. Technically speaking, the ER4S presents an easier impedance load to an amp than the ER4P under all circumstances. So if you like the way the ER4P sounds at position V on the volume (i.e., voltage) dial, the ER4S will sound quieter but (if anything) better at position V, regardless of the amp used. I hope this makes sense.

Any time you change the output stage (amp A vs. amp B), you may hear some subjective difference in sonic signature ("clearer highs", "punchier midrange", "euphonic warmth", etc.).

I think sometimes people don't realize that when you listen to headphones straight out of any piece equipment that has a headphone jack, you already are using a headphone amp. There's one built into the equipment (ipod, soundcard, etc.). If you get some other amp, you're just replacing amp A with amp B.

 

[nc8000]

The ER4, be at P or S, is to my experience one of the phones that gains the most the better amplification you give it. That does not mean that they don't sound good or ok without the amp but they can be made to sound a lot better with a good amp. I know I'm a bit extreme on that front but to me it really is worth it.