[Clutz]

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Originally Posted by ephemere /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ER4S requires exactly the same current as the ER4P to achieve the same SPL. Higher voltage, but equal current.

It's not exactly the same, but it's close. ER4S needs about 0.0079 amps, and the ER4P needs about 0.0074.

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Technically speaking, the ER4S presents an easier impedance load to an amp than the ER4P under all circumstances.

It presents an easier load at the nominal impedance, without the impedance / frequency curve, we can't say that.


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So if you like the way the ER4P sounds at position V on the volume (i.e., voltage) dial, the ER4S will sound quieter but (if anything) better at position V, regardless of the amp used.

Except that they have different frequency response curves. And they have different impedance / response curves- although they are both pretty flat and displaced by about (100-27) ohms all the way across until you get to about 2.5 khz, at which point the ER4P start to get a bit easier to drive, and the ER4S start to get to be a bit harder to drive, although the ER4S relationship is not strictly monotonic.

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I think sometimes people don't realize that when you listen to headphones straight out of any piece equipment that has a headphone jack, you already are using a headphone amp. There's one built into the equipment (ipod, soundcard, etc.). If you get some other amp, you're just replacing amp A with amp B.

That's true, but the opamps that they are using in their output section of various portables probably don't have the same slew-rate as a good headphone amplifier, and they're probably more current limited. And I am willing to bet that they produce less accurate wave forms.

 

[Antony6555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clutz /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not necessary, but to say it doesn't improve the sound is misleading. Unequivocally- an amp improves how the ER4S sounds.

I would agree it is an improvement, but it is slight. And the main difference in sound comes from the coloration of the amp. Still (I'm changing my mind a bit here) the improvement in bass impact may be worth it, if you get a cheap amp ($50ish at most.) But if you're going to spend $200, I'd just get different phones.

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Originally Posted by Clutz /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why is it different for full-sized headphones? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Headphones are presented as a dynamic load to whatever they're connected to- IEMs, or full sized- I don't see why one should be fundamentally different than the other. An amplifier with a nice low Zout is going to have plenty of current to drive the headphones at the various volumes without distorting.

Because full-size headphones typically require significantly more power, regardless of their impedance, than iems. For example, my k701 is 62ohms, a lower impedance than the er-4S. Yet the difference between an unamped and amped k701 is huge, while the difference for the er-4s is small.

Some speakers are also have very low impedance as well, but obviously could not be adequately driven by an ipod. Impedance simply does not tell the whole story.

 

[ephemere]

The spec sheet on Ety's website isn't enough info to analyze these electrical characteristics without making all sorts of guesses. The key piece of information is that ER4S = ER4P + a 73-ohm resistor in series. Once you look at it that way, you know much more:

1. By definition, the ER4P and ER4S need the same current for the same power output. Not close, but exactly the same.
2. Regardless of what the impedance curve of the ER4P is, the ER4S is a strictly easier load at all frequencies at a given voltage.

Work it out.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony6555 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would agree it is an improvement, but it is slight. And the main difference in sound comes from the coloration of the amp. Still (I'm changing my mind a bit here) the improvement in bass impact may be worth it, if you get a cheap amp ($50ish at most.) But if you're going to spend $200, I'd just get different phones.

I'm not sure that I would agree that $200 is too much to spend for an amplifier for a pair of ER4S/Ps- but to my mind that would definitely be the upper limit. I think they sound great with the Mini^3, and better with a Mini^3 than a two channel Cmoy using a OPA2132/4. I think the most obvious benefit of an amp to the ER4's is the fullness- which I would mostly attribute to bass- but I think(??) that there is also an improvement to the upper end sparkle. [/quote]

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Because full-size headphones typically require significantly more power, regardless of their impedance, than iems. For example, my k701 is 62ohms, a lower impedance than the er-4S. Yet the difference between an unamped and amped k701 is huge, while the difference for the er-4s is small.

I fully agree- the difference between amped and unamped K701 vs ER4S is huge. What I was objecting to more was that there would be no difference based on the fact that fullsized headphones and IEMs are totally different things. They differ in amplitude, but not on character, so to speak. They're both dynamic loads.

In my mind though, part of what is missing from the debate of to amp, or not to amp, IEMs is where do you do most of your listening? I used to do almost all of my listening with HD650/RS-1/K701s, and using my IEMs for walking around with- public transit, airplanes, etc. But the nature of my job has changed quite a bit- I spend almost no time (comparatively) at my desk. So when I was using my IEMs for casual use, I didn't care that much if I was getting that last 1-10% improvement in enjoyment, because I wasn't using them that much- but now that I use them most of the time that I do my listening, I care a lot more. Incidentally, I also am considering getting a much better pair of IEMs, but that's a bit beside the point. Yes, an amp makes a bigger difference for some headphones than others, but whether or not it's worth it- sort of depends on what you're using it for. I couldn't get a better pair of IEMs for $200, but I could make my current IEMs sound better. I hope you see what I'm driving at here, I'm not being terribly clear I'm afraid.

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Some speakers are also have very low impedance as well, but obviously could not be adequately driven by an ipod. Impedance simply does not tell the whole story.

Clearly, there is also the issue of efficiency. How much voltage is required to gain a particular volume? Then, how much current is required to attain that voltage? I understand that- I'm just suggesting that it's not necessarily true that it isn't worth amping ER4S/P headphones.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ephemere /img/forum/go_quote.gif The spec sheet on Ety's website isn't enough info to analyze these electrical characteristics without making all sorts of guesses. The key piece of information is that ER4S = ER4P + a 73-ohm resistor in series. Once you look at it that way, you know much more: By definition, the ER4P and ER4S need the same current for the same power output. Not close, but exactly the same. Regardless of what the impedance curve of the ER4P is, the ER4S is a strictly easier load at all frequencies at a given voltage. Work it out.

That assumes that there are no differences between the ER4S and the ER4P than simply a 73 ohm resistor in series. Has anyone ever actually disected a pair of ER4S? It could be that the ER4S and ER4P behave the same way at 1khz, but have different drivers and so behave differently at different frequencies. It's not clear to me why that cannot be true. I'm not saying it is, I'm just suggesting that we don't know that it isn't. All we know about is the performance at 1khz, right?

 

[jfunkie]

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Originally Posted by zpatzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif Rather than get a sound card, wouldn't it be better to just get an amp with DAC, like ibasso D2+boa

or how about a Nuforce Icon Mobile which would fall into the $100 budget?

I use mine more as a DAC than an amp per se.

 

[ZoNtO]

Pico. Love mine with the ER4s.

 

[zpatzer]

Has anyone tried the fiio e5 with the er4s? I am looking for a little bass since I listen to trance often.

 

[Happy Camper]

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Originally Posted by ZoNtO /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pico. Love mine with the ER4s.

I bet this combo does sound good. The PICO is warm. I loved it with Grados too.

 

[zpatzer]

To start, I think I will try out this fiio e5 since it is 20 dollars, and then think of serious investment later. Apparently it now comes with a LOD, but I can't find where to buy that combo. Anyone know?

 

[Rdr. Seraphim]

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Originally Posted by nc8000 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ER4, be at P or S, is to my experience one of the phones that gains the most the better amplification you give it. That does not mean that they don't sound good or ok without the amp but they can be made to sound a lot better with a good amp. I know I'm a bit extreme on that front but to me it really is worth it.

X2

 

[Antony6555]

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Yes, an amp makes a bigger difference for some headphones than others, but whether or not it's worth it- sort of depends on what you're using it for. I couldn't get a better pair of IEMs for $200, but I could make my current IEMs sound better.

You could get a pair of used triple fis for $200. But if you think about it, when you buy a new pair of headphones, you're upgrading. So you could sell your er-4S as well and then you could spend close to $350. You could get almost any of the universal iems used, including the um3x, ck100, se530 etc. Most would consider one or more of these phones an upgrade. You could also get cheap customs like Livewires.

Those who prefer triple driver universals or customs will probably prefer them more than 10%. So the people for whom an amp makes sense would be very limited in my mind.

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antony6555 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You could get a pair of used triple fis for $200. But if you think about it, when you buy a new pair of headphones, you're upgrading. So you could sell your er-4S as well and then you could spend close to $350. You could get almost any of the universal iems used, including the um3x, ck100, se530 etc. Most would consider one or more of these phones an upgrade. You could also get cheap customs like Livewires. Those who prefer triple driver universals or customs will probably prefer them more than 10%. So the people for whom an amp makes sense would be very limited in my mind.

I could sell my ER4S, but I know I like them - selling them for an unknown quantity that I may or may not like better seems like a bad idea to me. I know I dislike the SE530- I've had them, so that makes me skeptical that I'll like any particular IEM better than the ER4S- so again, for me (and thus probably for others) investing in an amp- that I can use with headphones other than just the ER4S- to me, makes sense. Besides, I can build a very good portable amp (Mini^3) for $80. You can probably buy one for $90-$100 used.

 

[srisaikat]

 

 

Hi, the left side cable of My Etymotic ER4P between the shirt-clip and driver has broken, can any one please suggest how to replace cable? I was very fond of the sound of this earphone which I used with a 4p to 4s converter. Oh, my God! Now I am missing it so much. Please somebody help. A know about apuresound cable, they are little bit costly. So can anyone suggest a quality but cost efficient solution?
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[mrarroyo]

Contact Etymotic they have excellent customer service. Also sometimes members here sell the original cable if/when they buy aftermarket cables.