[Armaegis]

I think the point they are trying to make is that some of your amps are capable of greater resolving detail, but you're feeding them a low end source so they don't have anything to work with, making your comparisons skewed towards the lower end amps.
 
Personally, I think your source is perfectly fine for the comparisons, and any upgrade of source would be noticeable across both amps (for the most part) equally... or if not equally, still not enough to shift the rankings appreciably.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

My position remains that if there are clearly audible differences between the amplifiers I've looked at in these tests, these differences will show up using the DAC MAGIC as a source. 
 
While it may be true that ultimate sound quality can be improved with a different DAC, these A/B tests are not about finding the finest sound but about looking for differences introduced by the amps. 
 

I thoroughly enjoyed reading your amp comparisons and I never meant to imply that it was in any way invalidated by using the Dacmagic as a source.  Whereas you're in the position of owning great amps and lesser dacs, I am in the opposite spectrum of owning several great dacs, but I only have lesser amps, hence I enjoyed your comparisons as I am in the market for improving my amps. 
 
I was merely sharing my findings with the impressive improvements from going to a hi-end dacs from the Dacmagic...this was as noticeable in my stock XCanV3 as on my Black Cube Linear.  IMO I believe if one already owns for eg a Dacmagic and XcanV3 and just purchased a HD800 and seek the next upgrade, I feel that upgrading the source would yield even greater improvements than upgrading the amp as the existing amp has improved data for amplfying.  Whereas upgrading the amp first, the improvements are there, however it is merely amplifying the same available data slightly differently.  Your findings here are seemingly backing up observations I made with my own amps.  I think I came across all wrong in my initial post and I hope you don't take it as any form of attack on this excellent thread.
 
Neverthless, reading this very helpful thread has persuaded me to eventually build a Beta 22 amp and also a Crack Paramount 300b monoblocks in the near future.  Great work in this thread and I truly appreciated your findings.
 
Kindest regards,
 
Sam.

 

[milosz]

I have a new DAC coming from Audio-GD -  an ESS based unit, NFB-10ES, which as you know also has a balanced headphone amp in it but can be used as a fixed-output DAC.   I will repeat most of my tests with this DAC to see what happens.  It will be interesting.
 
I am also doing an experiment with my DEQX, going to try running a compensation dataset for a set of headphones and then using the DEQX as a DAC / compensation processor.  To this end I am building an ear-and-check simulator to fit the calibrated mic that the DEQX uses.  The DEQX runs a set of sweeps that it looks at with it's mic and then calculates compensation for amplitude response, phase, group delay and impulse response. It's also a three-way crossover with slopes up to 200 dB / octave but of course with headphones you'd only use one channel full range and not all three channels as in a crossover implementation.  It's pretty amazing what it can do for speakers- it takes my Magneplanar MG 3.6's to a whole new place in terms of imaging- I am interested to see what it will do for headphones.  Of course, it's DSP-based magic is only as good as the measurement you make, and so I think a lot will depend on my "artificial ear."  I have the silicone pinna almost done and now I'm trying to figure out what to use for the ear canal.  All of this will be in a new thread once I get my ear up and running.....  

 

[SP Wild]

Congrats on the NFB10 purchase.  I heard the older Sabre DAC from the Peachtree integrated at the recent Sydney meet and with its built-in headamp was miles ahead of the Dacmagic with any of my headamps with the LCD2s.  I can only speculate that the NFB10 will be even better than the Peachtree.  I'd be curios with your results and I wonder if there will be big differences between the internal headamp of the NFB10 and the Beta 22 when using the Sabre DAC.
 
If I didn't purchase the Reference 7 I would have definitely ordered either NFB10 Sabre or Wolfson.  I was so impressed with the Reference 7 and how it made a mockery of my beloved Bryston DAC that I immediately placed a purchase on the Phoenix amp and it should be here soon, I figured I might as well go all the way!  The plan is then to build a Beta 22 and compare it to the Phoenix.
 
I'm all for EQ and the DEQX has been on my radar for when I finally get into speakers, because everytime I go to audition speakers, they sound terrible due to room resonances and I figured the most cost effective way is to use the microphone calibration system in the DEQX.
 
Good luck with all the ear measurement venture.  This sounds fascinating to me, and who knows, you might be able to unravel some hidden truths.  Cheers.

 

[Zida]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milosz /img/forum/go_quote.gif
... I will repeat most of my tests with this DAC...
... I am also doing an experiment with my DEQX
...I have the silicone pinna almost done and now I'm trying to figure out what to use for the ear canal.  All of this will be in a new thread once I get my ear up and running...

:O How do I auto-subscribe to every thread you create?

 

[milosz]

:O How do I auto-subscribe to every thread you create?
 
 
Ha ha ha, that's SO nice of you to say.   But- please!  No more nice comments.  If my head gets too big I won't be able to wear headphones anymore!  Très tragique!
 
 
 

 

[kite7]

It's nice to see a comparison of amplifiers not swayed by its pricing , only an honest opinion. Sometimes people just accept that the more expensive gear is better which isn't always true. Headphones don't improve indefinitely as one uses more expensive amplifiers.

 

[olor1n]

Looking forward to your WM8741 vs. ES9018 comparison milosz. I recently emailed Kingwa about what he'd recommend for a balanced HD650 when I go that path in future. To my surprise he suggested the NFB10WM over the ES. The ES is damn tempting though given recent developments.

 

[metrathon]

milosz (Hungarian, by any chance??),
 
This is by far the best thread I've ever seen on this forum. It's full of commonsense and imo, objectivity. But you see, this is also very polarizing.
 
Ppl will "hate" you because you basically rain on their parade and call them suckers, by saying that between a $200 and a $2,000 amp there is no much difference. 5 maybe 10%, while the price is 10x bigger. Basically you're telling them they are lying to themselves when writing those raving reviews after a much anticipated upgrade. And nobody likes to hear that.
Along with the regular folks, manufacturers will hate you as well, because you're trashing their marketing efforts.
 
Other ppl will love you because you're giving them hope, and save their wallet. It's like legalizing gay marriage, hey, you must not be ashamed you're listening to a $200 amp. You're alright, God loves you too, you have the same right as everyone. Head up
 
Personally, I love and hate you in the same time. Love because you proved what I always felt (read logic, intuition, experience): there is no dramatic difference between the poor man's amp and the CEO's amp, as the manufacturers would like us to believe.
Hate because you sort of crushed my dreams of making palpable improvements by upgrading to more expensive amps. Before this post, I had something to dream to. Not anymore
 
Overall, again, incredible useful post and lots of balls. Watch for suspicious packages on you door steps or white powder envelopes

 

[olor1n]

There's no "hate" here dude. Everyone's stated that the OP has provided some good insight. It's actually surprising. Perhaps the calm before the storm.

 

[dmk1]

Well, I was looking forward to replace my CK2III, hoping to get a definite, noticeable improvement with my HD800 (source is a DacMagic) but there goes that idea now, since even a beta22 would be nothing but a subtle upgrade.

Now I'm really curious to see if milosz' new DAC can spice things up... Thanks for the hard work and keep us posted!

 

[olor1n]

^ I HATE your avatar. There you go metrathon, some real "hate" in this thread.

 

[dmk1]

It's a jumping spider, the cutest arachnid there is, how can you hate it

 
(click to see the original) http://tinyurl.com/3yvmmam

 

[nikongod]

We have those little guys where I work. 
 
If they were the size of cats life as a human would be very different. 

 

[Armaegis]

I've been considering building a b22 or M3. I know the M3 is the more economical/practical choice and I probably wouldn't be able to hear the difference, but there's that silly part of my brain telling me "MOAR POWER" and grunting like Tim the Toolman Taylor...
 
I've also been musing over how to create an active balanced ground circuit like on Meier's amps (over in the DIY forum, and yes I did ask Jan if it was ok), and I think it would be easier to implement in a b22 (plus there are parts kits from Glass Jar)... despite the fact that I don't *really* know what I'm doing. Thoughts?