[olor1n]

Thanks for taking the time to do this and to share your findings with us milosz. It's refreshing to read someone in possession of some higher end components validate the quality of some "lesser" gear. This thread is bookmarked and will be used to temper my future decisions as I move to a balanced setup.

 

[renlute]

Great thread, milosz, which I just found.
 
Bring your A/B gadget to the next head-fi meet at the SF airport Doubletree next February and there'll be a line starting at your table and extending out the door.
(See my sig below.)

 

[milosz]

Quote:

Great thread, milosz, which I just found.
 
Bring your A/B gadget to the next head-fi meet at the SF airport Doubletree next February and there'll be a line starting at your table and extending out the door.
(See my sig below.)

I probably can't afford a trip to San Francisco.... I blew all my dough on headphones and amps!   

 

 

[XXII]

An interesting thread. If I have not missed anything, you haven't mentioned what db you have volume matched to. I would be interesting to see if the differences were more or less apparent at different SPL.

 

[SP Wild]

I'm not surprised that you found minimal differences in your amps.  I'm also surprised that others have not suggested that, perhaps the Dacmagic is the bottle neck in your fine collection.  My Dacmagic was first on the chopping block after I heard them via HD800s and LCD2s...I liked it with my K701s and and HD650s and felt the Dacmagic competed amazingly well with my Bryston BDA-1...but the Dacmagic is not a source for ultra precise drivers.  You've not heard how amazing the LCD2s can control bass until you pair it with a hi-end source.  The Dacmagic has an appalling uncontrolled bass...improved when using my XPSUV3 as a power source...but compared to my Bryston BDA-1 and my Audio GD Reference 7...it was utter garbage.

 

[milosz]

Since the Dacmagic is a constant in both the "A" and "B" amps under test, the sound of the Dacmagic as a source should not make one amp sound better or worse than the other.  This is a comparison of the two amplifiers under test using the same source.  Only the amplifier changes between A and B tests, so any differences in sound between A and B will be due solely to the amps. 
 

 

[milosz]

Quote:

An interesting thread. If I have not missed anything, you haven't mentioned what db you have volume matched to. I would be interesting to see if the differences were more or less apparent at different SPL.

I like to listen around 85~87 dB, sometimes louder.  For these tests I set the level to 85 dB.  

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

Since the Dacmagic is a constant in both the "A" and "B" amps under test, the sound of the Dacmagic as a source should not make one amp sound better or worse than the other.  This is a comparison of the two amplifiers under test using the same source.  Only the amplifier changes between A and B tests, so any differences in sound between A and B will be due solely to the amps. 
 

an amp cannot resolve what's not there in the first place. 

 

[violinvirtuoso]

I think "SP Wild" is trying to say that the differences would be more obvious with a better source. (Please correct me if I am wrong, or misinterpreting what was said).

 

[milosz]

I understand that is what he is trying to say.  I am not certain there is any good evidence showing that a different source would make the amps sound different. I think there is a logical flaw in thinking that changing the source would somehow "bring out"  differences in the amplifiers. 
 
Although an Audio_GD Ref 7 might be a better sounding DAC than the DAC Magic- or at least a DIFFERENT sounding DAC- it still doesn't alter the fact that the comparison here is between the two amplifiers. If the amplifiers indeed sound different then their sound signatures will show up whether the input is a direct signal from a pair of Neuman mics in a Blumlein pair flown over Orchestra Hall here in Chicago or a cassette.  (OK, well, maybe that is too extreme a contrast... but you get my meaning, I hope) And I really doubt that the difference between a Dac Magic and an Audio_GD Ref 7 is all that extreme. For grins I did some  analysis on the output of the Dac Magic and, for example,  signal at 10 Hz is down less than 0.2 dB. OK, so maybe it doesn't have the same bass sound character as the Ref 7, but I don't think anyone would say that this DAC lacks bass. And since my reviews are about what the amps DO to the bass from the source, and not about the source itself, I fail to see how a different DAC would change the perception of differences of sound between two amps.
 
While I don't see how it could make a difference in the results of these amp tests, I have an open mind- if someone cares to lend me an Audio_GD Ref 7  for a week I would gladly repeat all my tests with that DAC.
 
I will be getting an Audio_GD NFB-11 in a month or so, I can try a few tests using that.
 
People seem to think the ESS Sabre parts inside the NFB-11 make for a pretty good DAC.  The Sabre chips use multiple internal DACs the same way the Ref 7 (etc) use multiple DACs to average out conversion error.  The Sabre uses 8 DACs, 4 per channel in dual differential just like the Ref 7, except the Sabre benefits from all this being implemented one one silicon die vs. multiple chips in the Ref 7.   I would love to do blind A/B testing with the NFB-11 vs the Ref 7, to see if the various golden ears can really hear these "major differences" in sound quality that they claim to hear between what are otherwise all very well made and designed DACs.  I suspect a lot of people go by the assumption that if it costs $1,500 more it MUST be better, and so when they listen the psychoacoustic placebo effect serves to confirm this thinking.  Only a blind test could tell if listeners are actually able to hear these differences at statistically relevant levels of confidence.

 

[SP Wild]

Quote:

I think "SP Wild" is trying to say that the differences would be more obvious with a better source. (Please correct me if I am wrong, or misinterpreting what was said).

Thankyou, you put it in words better than I could.  IME, headphones such as the HD800 and LCD2 have the resolving precision of 10K+ speakers and I did not hear the logic in pairing such devices to entry level dacs such as my Dacmagic.  The OP seems a little sensitive to suggestions of source improvements, when he has the state of the art transducers paired with the finest of headphone amps...yet does not see the logic in upgrading to a source that befits the entire chain.  I merely expressed my findings in my audio journey with sincerity and without malice, yet it was construed as such.  For which I can only apologise for, if I came across with malicious intent.
 
I guarantee a 100 percent score in a DBT between the Bryston BDA-1 and Dacmagic.
 
Guarantee.

 

[olor1n]

The OP's tests still highlight the ceiling reached in amp SQ until you start spending the big bucks in upgrading your chain. For those not wanting to enter the realm of diminishing returns, these insights are of great value.

 

[Slaughter]

+1
 
Quote:

The OP's tests still highlight the ceiling reached in amp SQ until you start spending the big bucks in upgrading your chain. For those not wanting to enter the realm of diminishing returns, these insights are of great value.

 

[Armaegis]

Although I've personally never heard any of the big $1k dacs (not on my headphone rig anyways, I've heard a couple on speaker systems), most dacs to my ears were more sideway steps once you got beyond the junky onboard soundcards. For the dollar spent, I've heard more difference from upgrading amps and power supplies.

 

[milosz]

My position remains that if there are clearly audible differences between the amplifiers I've looked at in these tests, these differences will show up using the DAC MAGIC as a source. 
 
While it may be true that ultimate sound quality can be improved with a different DAC, these A/B tests are not about finding the finest sound but about looking for differences introduced by the amps.