[batracom]

  Quote:
 
That's an amazing contrast in opinion so I think a second "1st opinion" is necessary here... . My own new unit is not as "wow - open can sound" as I honestly thought AKGs "demo" pair were. I don't know why the demos, compared to the T5p.2s sounded like night and day; they are not night & day, but they certainly are still quite different and I do not share @EvilKillaruna view / comparison of the two. But my updated impressions are still based on too few hours of use and nothing more than that.
 

Thanks for this, I for one really appreciate the effort you and Evil are putting into defining the K872 sound and you really put the icing on the cake with the photos! My own unit is coming soon, and will hopefully chip in. I still think we need to keep expectations in check, closed backs are no where as advanced in development as open backs are, and lag way behind in terms of key characteristics such as sound stage and air. The K872 also seem to be more sensitive to the DAC/amp chain than other headphones. The T5P didn't seem to be that affected.

 

[buke9]

Thanks for this, I for one really appreciate the effort you and Evil are putting into defining the K872 sound and you really put the icing on the cake with the photos! My own unit is coming soon, and will hopefully chip in. I still think we need to keep expectations in check, closed backs are no where as advanced in development as open backs are, and lag way behind in terms of key characteristics such as sound stage and air. The K872 also seem to be more sensitive to the DAC/amp chain than other headphones. The T5P didn't seem to be that affected.

I think these headphones need more brain burn in as the signature was so different for me. I'm coming from mostly planars and do have a couple of dynamics but it was so different. I love my Ether C's but these I find for some things I like better. They do have better soundstage that is for sure and I thought the C's had great soundstage for a closed can.

 

[EvilKillaruna]

  1. It appears that EvilKillaruna has much more experience than me, based on his terminology as well as being a self-proclaimed AKG fan 

 
 

 
List of AKG headphones I've had pleasure to review or personally own since establishing my blog (8-year perspective):
 
AKG GHS 1
AKG K70 TV
AKG K142 HD
AKG M220 PRO
AKG K240 DF
AKG K240 MKII
AKG K240 Monitor
AKG K260 Professional
AKG K270 Playback
AKG K271 MKII
AKG K272 HD
AKG K280 Parabolic
AKG K290 Surround
AKG K301
AKG K315
AKG K321
AKG K330
AKG K340 ES-D (BH)
AKG Q350
AKG K370
AKG K390 NC
AKG K400 LP
AKG K401
AKG K420
AKG K450
AKG K500 EP
AKG K500 LP
AKG K501
AKG K518 DJ
AKG K550 MKI
AKG K612 PRO
AKG Q701
AKG K7XX
AKG K1000 EP
AKG K1000 LP
 
Bold = still in my possession.
 
Of course K872 will be listed after I'll finish their review. If there is anything worth comparing with K872 from this list, just let me know.
 
About my Burson - it is a quite the solid foundation for soundstage testing, as it was proved with very intensive review of LCD-4, showing notable changes and progress more than other sources. Tonality wise, it is the most optimal for K872 because of very little output impedance, high power and natural, spacious signature without emphasizing anything too much. Previous versions were not that awesome from what I've heard.
 
My description of soundstage is developed mostly from years spent on headphones known from extraordinary performance in this aspect, such as K1000 (openess), HD800 (size) or STAX Lambdas (holography). Those three pairs all have three pieces of bigger picture and holding the respective titles as the best parts of one perfect soundstage.
 
My opinions of course are not absolute and not to be directly confrontational. They are just mine and sometimes mine alone, expressed independently and against all odds. Sometimes I can sense greater soundstage from one model described often as condensed, sometimes smaller from other which should have vast amout of airiness. With K872 there are such differences too. Typically we are hearing both pair (K872 and T5p v2) different due to mostly three things:
- real differences in our hearing,
- anatomical angle of our ears,
- angle created by the earpads (with all their physical differences between two independent pairs) or driver baffle.
 
As some time passed after my previous description, my pair smoothened a little and gained a little more space in soundstage. Not the night-day changes, but they are pushing them towards better score. Changes in soundstage are increasing as I am pressing the front side of AKGs to create more pressure on forward parts of earpads. More pressure = lower front profile = greater angle = changes in the way how K872 are creating soundstage field. I believe I am receiving T5p as more spacious because of their agressive angle of drivers and acoustic deflectors, which are more suitable for my also more-than-average angled ears. That is why K872 also performs better with increased angle and getting better with time in that department. And the reason why your demo pair performed better than new unit.
 
I believe everyone hold their own truths, know their own ears and can percieve or understand sound of various headphones in own, unique way. I am fully aware (and somehow kind of proud) of being in minority with my (still mixed in some areas) feelings about K872, but it doesn't nessessairly prove that anyone has to be wrong with his judgement. And above all - it shouldn't take away pleasure from listening K872 if this pair represents everything you were pursuing till now. At the moment lets just say my hopes for closed 1500$ master reference headphones were sky high due to the list from the beginning of my post and all former AKGs glory from back then.

 

[FritzS]

@EvilKillaruna
you have a lot of AKGs - more than I    

 
 
AKG K812, K872, K712, Q701, K701, K271 MKII, K501, K550 - as guests AKG K1000, K702
 
And AKG (Philips) K50  too
 
 

 

 

 

 

[inthere]

Me too. I was absolutely convinced the K872 was an awesome closed back until I read what he had to say!

 

[FritzS]

  Me too. I was absolutely convinced the K872 was an awesome closed back until I read what he had to say!

My opinion the K872 is still a good closed headphone, I could say, please compare them self. Make your own opinion.

 

[EvilKillaruna]

That is the part of this hobby - is not only about getting new products but sometimes also cherishing the old ones. Here is the partial photo of my collection made some time ago:
 

 
 
Most of them have their reviews already published. There are few exceptions, but also no time for writing while stack of gear is piling up. K290 Surround were probably in best condition when arrived, K270 in worst, with completely broken elastics, devastated right side of headband near main supporting screw, not usable ear pads etc. So yes, many hours was spent just for nursing them back to good condition and making worth taking any photographs.
 
That's the best thing with new headphones that you don't have to worry about proper apperance:
 

 
 

  Me too. I was absolutely convinced the K872 was an awesome closed back until I read what he had to say!

 
As FritzS said. For such high price tag it is always better to make your own judgement. But unfortunately things are as they are in my case: that K872 is a good pair of headphones with many positive aspects, but also with some tar in a barrel of honey which can be ignored, tolerated or - as in my case - noticeable from time to time, preventing me from getting into the mood with some albums or tracks.

 

[FritzS]

K872 is not so analytic as K812. K812 don't forgive sharpness in recording, he is brutally honest, but K872 forgive some of sharpness.

 

[batracom]

As FritzS said. For such high price tag it is always better to make your own judgement. But unfortunately things are as they are in my case: that K872 is a good pair of headphones with many positive aspects, but also with some tar in a barrel of honey which can be ignored, tolerated or - as in my case - noticeable from time to time, preventing me from getting into the mood with some albums or tracks.

Fair point. Could you please tell us what type of music you use to test the K872 and other headphones? I for one would use them only to listen to Western classical and some jazz, thereby close to the music FritzS listens to...This has an impact on judgment.

 

[EvilKillaruna]

Because K812 are very "nervous" and in the same regions as K872 with tendency for being too nasal, but K872 due to its closed nature could be tuned better via proper damping.
 
 

  Fair point. Could you please tell us what type of music you use to test the K872 and other headphones? I for one would use them only to listen to Western classical and some jazz, thereby close to the music FritzS listens to...This has an impact on judgment.

 
 
I am always trying to test each headphones with very different genres and K872 is no exception. At the moment it was 50% electronic music (spacious ambient, ambientronica, psychill, IDM and such, often combined with acoustical and classical elements), 40% classical and modern classical, 8% score, blues and jazz, 2% hard and post rock. I tend to swich for most suitable genre for certain headphones if I find them performing it better.

 

[Traveller]

...List of AKG headphones I've had pleasure to review or personally own since establishing my blog (8-year perspective)...  
AKG GHS 1
AKG K70 TV
AKG K142 HD
AKG M220 PRO
AKG K240 DF
AKG K240 MKII
AKG K240 Monitor
AKG K260 Professional
AKG K270 Playback
AKG K271 MKII
AKG K272 HD
AKG K280 Parabolic
AKG K290 Surround
AKG K301
AKG K315
AKG K321
AKG K330
AKG K340 ES-D (BH)
AKG Q350
AKG K370
AKG K390 NC
AKG K400 LP
AKG K401
AKG K420
AKG K450
AKG K500 EP
AKG K500 LP
AKG K501
AKG K518 DJ
AKG K550 MKI
AKG K612 PRO
AKG Q701
AKG K7XX
AKG K1000 EP
AKG K1000 LP
 
Bold = still in my possession.
...

Woah... Respect! Based on some photos I saw posted as part of past Vienna Meets, it looks like you may have had more AKGs passing through your hands than even those with some minimal connection to the (former) Vienna Operations...

Next pressing question; is your website / reviews in Polish or English? I would be most interested to view some of your past work
EDIT: http://www.audiofanatyk.pl/category/recenzje/reviews/
 

Based on your discussion of spikes in the mid-upper frequencies, I assume you have already done some graphs of the K872's FR, Impedance, etc. I look forward to seeing them - regardless of language
 
~~~
 

...Originally Posted by Traveller /img/forum/go_quote.gif...So now back to Evilkillaruna's statement. I'm baffled considering I feel the exact opposite about the two cans. I would be curious to hear his opinion of this reviewer's findings on "fit": http://majorhifi.com/akg-k872-review/
"When the headphone is fighting you and not positioning itself correctly the sound quality heavily spikes in the mid-range making everything sound incredibly boxy, so if you start noticing a hotter mid-range work on the positioning the headphone"

 
Quote:

...My description of soundstage is developed mostly from years spent on headphones known from extraordinary performance in this aspect, such as K1000 (openess), HD800 (size) or STAX Lambdas (holography). Those three pairs all have three pieces of bigger picture and holding the respective titles as the best parts of one perfect soundstage. ... I believe everyone hold their own truths, know their own ears and can percieve or understand sound of various headphones in own, unique way. I am fully aware (and somehow kind of proud) of being in minority with my (still mixed in some areas) feelings about K872, but it doesn't nessessairly prove that anyone has to be wrong with his judgement...

I wouldn't say that. The first review I stumbled across was that of "Majorhifi" - a website I've never heard of before. One thing's for sure - he was also upset about issues in the FR so clearly you are not alone with your opinions. There are also some more optimistic reviews, such as this one:
https://www.recordingmag.com/productreviews/2016/11/118.html
Given all the variables involved in testing audio equipment, for sure more than one outcome is possible. My interest is focused on the comments regarding K872 vs. T5p.2 because I own them and (as you already know) had a different result... .
 
I will be interested in finding out how the K872 fair against other TOTLs but I am most interested naturally on how they do against other closed solutions... .
 

 

[Beagle]

 
The bad
But at the same time K872 is unfortunately not a kind of end-gamer in any way, even if we will limit our perspective to closed cans only. My bigger complains are focused around:
- the lowest bass, its shallow depth and dry character
- nasal timbre of highs with tendency of becoming harsh, metallic and thin
- small soundstage
 
The "tizzyness" is still there, but much less pronounced. I can accept reduced soundstage (as for closed cans) and bass (as I am not the basshead myself and quite tolerant with K1000 or even less bassy DF's) but nasal highs are the one thing that preventing me from full enjoyment of this pair. K872 have strong peaks in 5 and 8 kHz points.

 
I think I understand your views about the treble. With the 872, I am finding vinyl surface noise and analog hiss to be "blown out of proportion". I use surface noise, hiss and white noise to analyse headphone treble, and I do find it rather boxy, honky and overemphasized on the 872.
 
If I just focus on the music as a whole, I find the 872 very satisfying, detailed and musical. Very lowest bass fundamentals are not all there but I certainly do not find the soundstage small.

 

[Traveller]

Another interesting review, albeit devoid of measurements...
http://headfonics.com/2016/12/the-k872-by-akg/

 

[EvilKillaruna]

  Woah... Respect! Based on some photos I saw posted as part of past Vienna Meets, it looks like you may have had more AKGs passing through your hands than even those with some minimal connection to the (former) Vienna Operations...

Next pressing question; is your website / reviews in Polish or English? I would be most interested to view some of your past work
EDIT: http://www.audiofanatyk.pl/category/recenzje/reviews/
 

Based on your discussion of spikes in the mid-upper frequencies, I assume you have already done some graphs of the K872's FR, Impedance, etc. I look forward to seeing them - regardless of language
 
~~~
 

...Originally Posted by Traveller /img/forum/go_quote.gif...So now back to Evilkillaruna's statement. I'm baffled considering I feel the exact opposite about the two cans. I would be curious to hear his opinion of this reviewer's findings on "fit": http://majorhifi.com/akg-k872-review/
"When the headphone is fighting you and not positioning itself correctly the sound quality heavily spikes in the mid-range making everything sound incredibly boxy, so if you start noticing a hotter mid-range work on the positioning the headphone"

 
 
Some of my friends were joking that AKG should sponsor my blog after such blast with their models. Especially after what I was describing about making some of them into working condition after many years spent covered in filth, dirt and dust. But it was mostly great fun and challenge in their restoration. At the same time they couldn't believe that I couldn't get anything more expensive than K271 for review and my e-mails for polish AKG dealer were ignored. As a result, K872 is the very first pair of AKG sent to me by any retailer, after 8 years. Every other single model was bought by me personally. In few cases it was borrowed from friends and reviewed as simply private review out of pure determination. Nowadays I have so many their models because of the time and efforts I made, but mostly as various sound signatures I can use for other reviews as a reference for certain acoustical aspects. From personal point of view, there is something in their older models which can be very charming, magnetic and simply missing in those in current production. It is their conventional, normal, climatic creation of sound and space, built around midrange as the basic foundation, not cheap effectiveness. It can be time consuming to understand their older models, but there is always some kind of palpable idea of engineer responsible for certain project. You can call it a "soul" if you like. Older vintage Beyerdynamics and Sennheisers have it too.
 
Some time ago I was reviewing portable OPPO PM3. Quite a headphones, good build quality and ergonomics, nice, musical and pleasurable sound... but still being pursued by K240 Monitor in terms of general sound concept and climate even when we consider large gap in price tags. Nowadays people can be focused on racing for the new products too much. It is easy to forget how good older headphones was.
 
Unfortunately Polish only. There are of course some english elements in adresses but for example "reviews" was always the default Wordpress category in most of the themes I used. Of course there is no major problem with Google Translator, but not every single word can be translated the way it should be or even at all. This is the specificity of Slavic languages, especially when you are using archaisms and colloquialisms a lot, like me. But I am still considering making some reviews which will be fully translated and understandable in English, even with my poor grammar as English is not my native language. The only problem as always is time, and time alone.
 
Yes, I did a very simple FR without compensation and with simplified waveform. It often helps me diagnose the possible tonality problems. With K872 I want to wait for the last days to see if there are any changes. I am combining it often with soundstage size graph, which allows me later to compare opinions between similar class headphones more accurately.
 
Majorhifi was probably the first full review I've seen for K872, but I have no specific information if it is a valid source or not. But still this is minority against for example opinions from here, much more positive about K872 than K812. I think my feelings about treble in K872 are very consistent with @Beagle's description. I too can ignore most of them when just focus on the music as a whole and stop breaking everything into pieces. I probably shouldn't be saying this, but with headfonics review, when I am listening K872 and reading it, I can see which issues were diminished or ommited. But I accept that it can be a individual perspective and paying attention for very different aspects, giving them not equal importance when it comes to sound description and final verdict.
 
The names of certain headphones I can confront them with were in my previous posts. But If you ask me for example how K872 perform against Ultrasone Edition 5 Limited - the most expensive closed back headphones I've had a chance to listen - I would say they are much better headphones as a whole than Ultrasone. Although in details UED5L have significantly better top end resolution and even with completely broken acoustical model for me, their highs are indeed in different class than AKGs. Never the less, I have a feeling that K872 should be cheaper for the real quality they are offering and I am considering Beyerdynamic T5p v2 as slightly better deal from price-to-SQ perspective and as their closest competitor.

 

[Traveller]

...Yes, I did a very simple FR without compensation and with simplified waveform. It often helps me diagnose the possible tonality problems. With K872 I want to wait for the last days to see if there are any changes. I am combining it often with soundstage size graph, which allows me later to compare opinions between similar class headphones more accurately.
...I have a feeling that K872 should be cheaper for the real quality they are offering and I am considering Beyerdynamic T5p v2 as slightly better deal from price-to-SQ perspective and as their closest competitor.

I'm looking forward to the graphs, sir

  I already Google-translated one or the other entries on your site and unfortunately the "spirit" of your reviews is somewhat lost in translation, but the bullet points are still quite useful to all.
 
I was surprised (as well) by the list price of the K872 (~ €1.6K) but if I'm not mistaken, the K812s debuted at a high price back in 2014. Ditto for the T1 and T5ps. While indeed applicable to real-world purchasing, I am not sure how "correct" it is to compare the brand new K872 to the now older (Dec 2015?) and thus cheaper T5p.2 on price alone but I know cost will only be one factor in your assessment.
 
It will be interesting to see your conclusion and when the day comes that the prices of the K872 fall closer to the €1.2~1K mark if the K872 will be on par with the T5p.2s, in the end different only in signature and therefore subject to personal preference... .