[SparkOnShore]

That's really weird... I wonder where they came from. US models are 550 USD which is about 400 pounds after you do the conversions. I think that's the cheapest you can get them right now. Though some retailers have had them on sale for 450 USD lately, or about 325 pounds. They'd have to buy in bulk to offset shipping costs to sell at 380 pounds at a profit. I guess it's possible.

Exactly, and lower their margin as well, as a marketing strategy to sell more. Personally I don't believe there are knockoffs APM. If I was him I would buy it, just under the condition that I could perform a firmware update before paying for it.

 

[angelom]

It is the first time that I realise and would like to share it with you here that the APM's sound is kind of veiled. So I can finally sympathise with and understand people here and elsewhere who do not like their sound signature that much. I have used my APM to listen on one of my music pieces on which I was working lately (mainly recorded on Logic Pro using midi as well as analog sources) and since I know very well all the details and sounds' extensions I am in a position to be an accurate judge. So the APM is presenting a rather dark copy of my piece, which when I hear on monitor speakers, or even on some BA iems like my Shure Aonic 4 (hybrid DD and one BA), is giving me a ton more details in the synths tails, in some drum sounds, voices etc. Some background sounds also are completely mute on the APM. If I was mixing on the APM I would certainly use eq to elevate certain frequencies, which seem absolutely fine and clear on my other speakers, thus leading me to mistakes in the final mix. I think this is the fate of all elevated bass headphones. You cannot find easily a headphone with such a deep a punchy bass to combine with full mids and treble details presentation. It turns out to be a veiled and dark sound, certainly missing out on the details of a music piece. Apart from the sound though, it's a very good headphone, sturdy, comfortable, with high quality materials, having of course also all the benefits of Apple's chips, Spatial audio, perfect ANC etc. But for sound alone, it may not cut it, especially for audiophiles and people who like a resolving presentation as well as a detailed and accurate sound. It was for sure a surprise for me, on my own music, and certainly kind of disappointing since it is not a cheap item, but ok, it certainly has its uses...

Edit: Of course another question would be where does my piece sound better? Well, its dark and veiled copy of the APM is not bad, but it certainly is not accurate. The more balanced/bright speakers present clearly what I made, when the APM presents a more laid back and less fatiguing sound. So, veiled is not bad (for sure goes mellower on the ears), but the problem is with accuracy which is not there.

I am one of the persons that describing the APM sound as veiled even when in general the sound is very good. I don't remember if you considering before the b&o h95 or if you saying the price for you is very high, but maybe in some time in the future you can trying this excellent headphone. I have the h95 for almost 11 months and is still giving me the best sound of any bt and anc headphone in my experience.

 

[SparkOnShore]

What I'm questioning is how Apple determines what features will be enabled on the firmware. If it's based on serial number (IE a UK serial vs US serial) or if it's based on the physical location of the device (this would be a lot weirder to implement since you could in theory have features turning on and off as you travel). The code might be included, but I'm not sure if the features are enabled. Granted the seller is probably sourcing from the US since the APM are a lot cheaper over here than over there so missing features should be less of an issue.

Edit: though it reads like the features still work on your devices even if they aren't officially "supported" for your region.

When I am in Greece my Apple Pay on my iPhone works normally. When I travel to Turkey where Apple Pay is not officially supported, my Apple Pay, on the same iPhone of mine, does not work. And in any case we speak about the APM here, on which there is zero reason to specify updates according to regions. I am sure all APM and all its updates are identical.

 

[mainguy]

Seems that still it's only wired if you care about sound.

Ive tried a lot of BT headphones and mostly agree, but the P7 Wireless do a really, really good job. They’re by far and away the best, but I need ANC so have the apm.

I wish Apple would buy Bowers& Wilkins, leave the audio to them, and do the tech, anc, etc.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I am one of the persons that describing the APM sound as veiled even when in general the sound is very good. I don't remember if you considering before the b&o h95 or if you saying the price for you is very high, but maybe in some time in the future you can trying this excellent headphone. I have the h95 for almost 11 months and is still giving me the best sound of any bt and anc headphone in my experience.

Hi Angelom, I remember you and always respected your knowledgeable contribution to this forum. No, it was not me who expressed any interest or price discouragement regarding the H95. I am aware they are a very good pair of headphones and I may consider in the future. Thanks a lot and sending you my best wishes always.

 

[SparkOnShore]

Ive tried a lot of BT headphones and mostly agree, but the P7 Wireless do a really, really good job. They’re by far and away the best, but I need ANC so have the apm.

I wish Apple would buy Bowers& Wilkins, leave the audio to them, and do the tech, anc, etc.

It may happen sometime, but I think Apple took a while back many executives and engineers from B&W, thus some people were believing the APM as a result of those B&W specialists in cooperation with Apple's software experts. Who knows though?

 

[tinyman392]

Exactly, and lower their margin as well, as a marketing strategy to sell more. Personally I don't believe there are knockoffs APM. If I was him I would buy it, just under the condition that I could perform a firmware update before paying for it.

The only issue I’d have is warranty. If he ever needed it warranties, it would need to be shipped back to the country of origin.

 

[MayaTlab]

I wish Apple would buy Bowers& Wilkins, leave the audio to them, and do the tech, anc, etc.

Hem *cough* PX7 *cough* : https://headphonetestlab.co.uk/test-results-manufacturers-a-d-bw-px7
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bowers-wilkins/px7-wireless
The P7W is the only truly decent sounding pair of HPs B&W ever made (no surprise, it's the only one that measures truly well).

Actually, quite a few B&W engineers went on to work at Apple : https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-geaves-9aa31644

 

[mainguy]

Hem *cough* PX7 *cough* : https://headphonetestlab.co.uk/test-results-manufacturers-a-d-bw-px7
https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/bowers-wilkins/px7-wireless
The P7W is the only truly decent sounding pair of HPs B&W ever made (no surprise, it's the only one that measures truly well).

Actually, quite a few B&W engineers went on to work at Apple : https://www.linkedin.com/in/gary-geaves-9aa31644

Definately dont agree with that, the P9 sound fantastic, as do the P5. PX7 are what they are, A/B them with the APM both are flawed…PX7 Arent noticably behind the M3, and I had both side by side. I prefer the P7 though, they blow the APM out of the water imo

 

[SparkOnShore]

It is rather strange that Apple has produced such a bass heavy and dark sounding headphone, since it goes against their style and sound choices, as those were exposed with all their previously released audio products. The original Airpods, the older BA in ears (that was a really good headphone), even the APP, were all an indication of Apple's inclination to clear and balanced sound. As both @tinyman392 and @MayaTlab have pointed out here, something may have gotten wrong or changed during the production procedure of this HP. The engineering is so really perfect and so difficult to execute that leaves you wondering why it offers so little in sound. I guess that since it is all DSP, they could possibly change the signature in the future, but I am not at all sure they would ever choose to do so. In any case it is a big surprise that Apple of clear and balanced sound preferences, came up with such a bassy HP. It is the company that bought Beats after all and made them much more balanced and good sounding, why is their own APM so veiled and lacking background details, is really beyond any logic.

 

[MayaTlab]

It is rather strange that Apple has produced such a bass heavy and dark sounding headphone, since it goes against their style and sound choices, as those were exposed with all their previously released audio products. The original Airpods, the older BA in ears (that was a really good headphone), even the APP, were all an indication of Apple's inclination to clear and balanced sound. As both @tinyman392 and @MayaTlab have pointed out here, something may have gotten wrong or changed during the production procedure of this HP.

I would not specifically call them "bass heavy". The way their response below 1kHz is shaped, when I measure them on my head with various in-ear mics techniques, or when they're measured on various test rigs, is quite close to Harman / K371 for example (which to me isn't per se "bass heavy").
Now someone's subjective assessment of a pair of HPs' bass response has a lot to do IMO about what happens above 1kHz, as it's the overall spectrum that matters. A lot of dummy head measurements tend to show that the APM's response is quite conservative vs. various target curves in the 1 to 4-5kHz region. This alone could make the response below 1kHz stand out more. But as I said, and interestingly I'm not the only one, using in-ear mics show that the response in that region isn't quite as deficient overall as what test rigs would suggest (albeit still quite conservative, and I personally find them deficient above 3Khz in particular - but not much below) : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...k-headphones-200-300.16005/page-3#post-828653, https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/os73cl/airpods_max_impressions/
Above a few kHz the APM's measurements are all over the place. Difficult to extract any valid information here. Personally I'm getting too much trebles response past 6kHz or so overall.
In general above 1kHz it's entirely possible that the APM exhibits quite significant person to person variation if we were to measure their FR at the listener's eardrum.

What I feel however, is that two decisions that Apple stuck to during development, ie the headband to cup attachment pivot mechanism (and more specifically the fact that the headband joins the cups at the top and requires the latter to be spring loaded to compensate), and the fact that the earcups are symmetrical front to back (as Apple originally floated the idea of making the APM L/R reversible and stuck to that design even when they didn't pursue this idea further), made them a lot harder to effectively tune and develop past 1kHz than they should have been. My suspicion here (and it's just an idea that I'm floating) is that these two elements combined may make them couple with test rigs, which aren't that anatomically correct around the pinna, in a way that isn't a superb match for the average human (notwithstanding another idea that I'd float : I suspect that these design decisions compromise quite severely the person to person FR consistency of the APM).

Combined with Apple's usual secrecy and possibly the lack of mass-testing with real ear measurements and the final deliverable product (I have very little doubt that Apple spent a considerable amount of time with proxies to determine on their own what listeners preferred the most) that they could have done otherwise I'm not too surprised that the tuning above 1kHz may sound a little bit off to quite a few people, may show quite a bit of variation across listeners, and may result in the APM's sounding "bass heavy" to some people.

I still find them much better tuned than most other over-ears ANC headphones I've tried.

 

[SparkOnShore]

I would not specifically call them "bass heavy". The way their response below 1kHz is shaped, when I measure them on my head with various in-ear mics techniques, or when they're measured on various test rigs, is quite close to Harman / K371 for example.
Now someone's subjective assessment of a pair of HPs' bass response has a lot to do IMO about what happens above 1kHz, as it's the overall spectrum that matters. A lot of dummy head measurements tend to show that the APM's response is quite conservative vs. various target curves in the 1 to 4-5kHz region. This alone could make the response below 1kHz stand out more. But as I said, and interestingly I'm not the only one, using in-ear mics show that the response in that region isn't quite as deficient overall as what test rigs would suggest (albeit still quite conservative, and I personally find them deficient above 3Khz in particular - but not much below) : https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...k-headphones-200-300.16005/page-3#post-828653, https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/os73cl/airpods_max_impressions/
Above a few kHz the APM's measurements are all over the place. Difficult to extract any valid information here. Personally I'm getting too much trebles response past 6kHz or so overall.
In general above 1kHz it's entirely possible that the APM exhibits quite significant person to person variation if we were to measure their FR at the listener's eardrum.

What I feel however, is that two decisions that Apple stuck to during development, ie the headband to cup attachment pivot mechanism (and more specifically the fact that the headband joins the cups at the top and requires the latter to be spring loaded to compensate), and the fact that the earcups are symmetrical front to back (as Apple originally floated the idea of making the APM L/R reversible and stuck to that design even when they didn't pursue this idea further), made them a lot harder to effectively tune and develop past 1kHz than they should have been. My suspicion here (and it's just an idea that I'm floating) is that these two elements combined may make them couple with test rigs, which aren't that anatomically correct around the pinna, in a way that isn't a superb match for the average human (notwithstanding another idea that I'd float : I suspect that these design decisions compromise quite severely the person to person FR consistency of the APM).

Combined with Apple's usual secrecy and possibly the lack of mass-testing with real ear measurements and the final deliverable product (I have very little doubt that Apple spent a considerable amount of time with proxies to determine on their own what listeners preferred the most) that they could have done otherwise I'm not too surprised that the tuning above 1kHz may sound a little bit off to quite a few people, may show quite a bit of variation across listeners, and may result in the APM's sounding "bass heavy" to some people.

I still find them much better tuned than most other over-ears ANC headphones I've tried.

I agree with your point of view. The low frequency response may be on target (if we consider Harman an acceptable curve, since it is already quite elevated in the bass area), but when there are hidden elements above 1kHz the whole presentation becomes dark. I didn't like at all when I could not hear clearly some upper mids details on a so expensive piece of gear, when those were easily discernible on other HPs. The reduced curve is more emphatic on a really crucial area of the audio spectrum, unfortunately. Yes I agree with you that it seems their design causes different FR perception from person to person and the deviation is quite severe. It is certainly good for a BT headphone but after my shocking experience on my own music I would not choose it for anything serious or critical. For Apple TV though, with Atmos and such, they are quite good, but nothing more than that.

 

[tinyman392]

Keep in mind that there are people who prefer this sort of laid-back presentation of sound. It's a bit more musical and easier to listener in the long term. I remember back in the day Tyll saying that he preferred a smoother, warmer sounding headphone vs something more analytical. Though I'm not sure if he's heard the APM and how that would have sufficed in a review.

One thing I will mention is that if you spatialize stereo on the APM, you will get a small boost in the upper mids. There are also the headphone accommodations as well that exist to help this area out, but those don't save to the headphone which is unfortunate. These might not help your use cases though.

 

[mainguy]

I agree with your point of view. The low frequency response may be on target (if we consider Harman an acceptable curve, since it is already quite elevated in the bass area), but when there are hidden elements above 1kHz the whole presentation becomes dark. I didn't like at all when I could not hear clearly some upper mids details on a so expensive piece of gear, when those were easily discernible on other HPs. The reduced curve is more emphatic on a really crucial area of the audio spectrum, unfortunately. Yes I agree with you that it seems their design causes different FR perception from person to person and the deviation is quite severe. It is certainly good for a BT headphone but after my shocking experience on my own music I would not choose it for anything serious or critical. For Apple TV though, with Atmos and such, they are quite good, but nothing more than that.

There’s just something missing in the mids, it was totally clear to me when I first tried them a hundred pages ago or so (said as much, and quite a few seemed to agree).
It’s fine, if you want to see a headphones with some serious gaps try the MW65 Lol. But the Airpods Max are miiiiles better than the MW65, which are a £450 headphone.

Combined with Apple's usual secrecy and possibly the lack of mass-testing with real ear measurements and the final deliverable product (I have very little doubt that Apple spent a considerable amount of time with proxies to determine on their own what listeners preferred the most) that they could have done otherwise I'm not too surprised that the tuning above 1kHz may sound a little bit off to quite a few people, may show quite a bit of variation across listeners, and may result in the APM's sounding "bass heavy" to some people.

I still find them much better tuned than most other over-ears ANC headphones I've tried.

I agree tbh, it’s entirely possible design was no.1 for Apple (as it always is) and this influenced what could be pulled off. They’re my favourite sounding ANC headphone i think, but i haven’t tried them alongside the Momentum 3 which I had a year ago…

Next to the PX7, I do enjoy the PX7s mids a lot more, vocals for sure. Much warmer signature, but also detailed vocally. Im not sure between the two tbh, which says a lot given the PX7 are half the price. I do like the B&W signature though, and I think the APM sub bass blows the B&W away, as does it’s overall clarity. It’s just a gap in the mids really hurts a lot of music I like, especially vocal heavy tracks, and for that music it’s crazy how noticable it is.

Thats not to say Apple havent made the best ANC headphone on the market. Im fairly confident they have, just need to try the M3 again.

 

[SparkOnShore]

Keep in mind that there are people who prefer this sort of laid-back presentation of sound. It's a bit more musical and easier to listener in the long term. I remember back in the day Tyll saying that he preferred a smoother, warmer sounding headphone vs something more analytical. Though I'm not sure if he's heard the APM and how that would have sufficed in a review.

One thing I will mention is that if you spatialize stereo on the APM, you will get a small boost in the upper mids. There are also the headphone accommodations as well that exist to help this area out, but those don't save to the headphone which is unfortunate. These might not help your use cases though.

You are absolutely right, I was one of them, preferring always the warm sound, mainly due to my love for bass and bass music. But my preferences have been changed for some time now, for a peculiar reason that I am not aware of. Especially these cases where it feels like there is a curtain covering the "window" which does not allow a clear "view", make me go further away from my old warm sound inclination. I am aware of Tyll's preference since I used to care a lot about his judgement. I miss a lot his audio recommendations and reviews!

Please let me know how can I enable this infamous spatialize stereo on iOS 14.7.1? When I click on the volume slider in control centre with the APM, I see only noise control (noise cancelation) and spatial audio which is only valid for movies and which I have enabled in any case (it is in blue color). What more do I have to do?