[hifi-noob]

Hi!
 
I have a problem, i hope somebody more competent than me can help me with.
This is a problem i have had 2 years now and i have read and read and read, and now i think i need your help before i go crazy.
 
Initially i bought a AH-D2000, 2 years ago. First i used the headphones directly connected to onboard sound (nvidia AC97). That sucked hard. Flat sound.
So i installed my old Soundblaster Live 5.1 (model: SB0060, Sigmatel DAC) and connected my Sony mini stereo 695 to the computer. Using the hardware EQ on the stereo i got ok sound i guess, but not nearly good enough. Not like the posts you can see here and there telling everyone about great bass, great sound and so on and on...
 
So my setup for almost one and a half year was:
soundblaster Live 5.1 > sony Mini stereo 695 with preset "rock" EQ > AH-D2000
 
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During the summer this year i felt i had to do something about the setup, So by recommendation in threads i bought an X-Can V8P from Musical Fidelity. With this setup, still connected to SB Live 5.1 i felt the bass was even worse, more detailed sound, yes, but no punch in the bass, or should i say driving bass. Because of the lack of EQ? Do you need that to get the AH-Dxxxx series to have a lot of bass?
 
The setup this time:
soundblaster Live 5.1 > X-Can V8P > AH-D2000
 
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With this setup i also noticed a clicking sound in the left headphone driver, only reproducable in movies with extreme low frequencies. I talked with the store i bought the AH-D2000 from and they could reproduce the sound on two other identical headphones. So they rebought the headphones because it obviously has a design flaw. I have not read about this anywhere else, strange...
 
I listened on a AH-D5000 in the store and was blown away by the sound. it was incredible, exactly like people here describes it. Also the clicking sound is not appearing with the AH-D5000. So with the refund and a "little" money in between i instead bought a AH-D5000.
 
My setup now:
soundblaster Live 5.1 > X-Can V8P > AH-D5000
 
Stil the same flat sound. I can not understand how you get the incredible sound.
using the built in Burr-Brown DAC in the X-Can V8P instead of the SB Live 5.1 gives EVEN WORSE SOUND!
 
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So what to do now?
I´m considering as a last resort to buy a new soundcard. Namely an "Asus Xonar ST". And use the following setup:
Asus Xonar ST > AH-D5000
 
And when i want the tube sound
 
Asus Xonar ST > X-Can V8P > AH-D5000
 
 
Is this a good solution?
 
Yes, i am probably a complete moron, but please enlighten me with what i am doing wrong.
I would be extremely thankful if some audiophile could help me out here...
 
 
Thanks in advance

 

[TobaccoRoad]

Why don't you ask what source they were using at the store?

 

[Ham Sandwich]

The X-Can V8P has a USB DAC inside.  Have you tried using the USB input to the X-Can as a source instead of your SoundBlaster?  I'd have to think the X-Can's DAC would have to be better than what the SoundBlaster does.

 

[hifi-noob]

Quote:

The X-Can V8P has a USB DAC inside.  Have you tried using the USB input to the X-Can as a source instead of your SoundBlaster?  I'd have to think the X-Can's DAC would have to be better than what the SoundBlaster does.

I actually tried the Burr-Brown DAC in the X-CAN, i got even worse sound...

 

[hifi-noob]

The thing i want to know i guess is... To get the bass heavy sound the AH-Dxxxx series is known for, do you need to use an Equalizer?

 

[mikop]

I use e7/e9 as my dac/amp. I do not need to EQ up the bass.
 
Afraid I can't help you much other than that... by all account, the X-Can V8P is a much more capable amp....   Don't know what's wrong, sorry.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

Do you have a home CD player or home DVD player that can play audio CDs?  Try connecting the X-Can amp to a source other than the computer.  That will allow you to determine if the computer playback is at fault or if it is the amp itself.
 
If you liked the D5000 at the audio dealer you should be able to get a very similar sound at home.  The dealer likely was likely using a straight CD player as source.  No EQ or extra processing going on.  No computer processing funny business.  You can achieve the same by using a regular CD player (or DVD player) as source and see what it does.  It's possible that your computer setup is messing things up through extra EQ, headphone processing, home theater processing, or some other sort of audio processing.

 

[darkswordsman17]

There's definitely something wrong if there's that big of a disparity.
 
What software are you using on the computer? Maybe its doing some processing or the EQ is on? That's the only thing I can think of that would be causing it across the onboard sound, a sound card, and a USB DAC, as the OS would likely be using different settings for each one, so it'd have to be the software you're using for playback.
 
Definitely see if you can try them out on something else.
 
Even straight out of onboard sound the audio shouldn't be so drastically different as you describe it, let alone that it would cause you to think its defective. Also, with onboard sound, it tends to make the bass flabbier and more pronounced versus a better source/amp, so if anything you would have likely been getting the opposite.

 

[hifi-noob]

Quote:

Do you have a home CD player or home DVD player that can play audio CDs?  Try connecting the X-Can amp to a source other than the computer.  That will allow you to determine if the computer playback is at fault or if it is the amp itself.
 
If you liked the D5000 at the audio dealer you should be able to get a very similar sound at home.  The dealer likely was likely using a straight CD player as source.  No EQ or extra processing going on.  No computer processing funny business.  You can achieve the same by using a regular CD player (or DVD player) as source and see what it does.  It's possible that your computer setup is messing things up through extra EQ, headphone processing, home theater processing, or some other sort of audio processing.

HI-FI i suck at. Computers i know.
Iḿ running both Gentoo Linux (Linux kernel 2.6.33) and Windows XP SP3, same result on both systems. In Gentoo i use Audacious without EQ, in Windows i use Winamp.
 
I suspect it is my soundcard. I will upgrade to a Xonar ST, the PCI variant. Is there anybody else out there using this card or the STX with the AH-Dxxxx?

 

[hifi-noob]

Quote:

Even straight out of onboard sound the audio shouldn't be so drastically different as you describe it, let alone that it would cause you to think its defective. Also, with onboard sound, it tends to make the bass flabbier and more pronounced versus a better source/amp, so if anything you would have likely been getting the opposite.

I have also tested the headphones on a portable computer with a Intel ICH6 AC97 soundcard. It got a liiittle better with this setup.
The things you say above is exactly the results i thought i would get, iḿ just getting more and more confused about this.

 

[Ham Sandwich]

In regards to the bass heavy sound of the Denons.  The Denons have a strong bass for a headphone that is reasonably neutral.  That is a headphone that has a reasonably flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.  The bass is full and has some punch and rumble.  It's not an airy and light kind of bass that you can get with some headphones.  So when people call the Denon D2000/D5000/D7000 as being bass heavy that is in relation to other reasonably neutral headphones that have a lighter style of bass and that most likely roll off the bass in the low frequencies.
 
Being a reasonably neutral headphone the Denon is going to give you the level of bass that is in the recording.  If the recording is light in the bass then the Denon will play back with less bass.  If the recording is heavy in the bass then the Denon will play back with more bass.
 
There are headphones that do have a boosted bass response, that are indeed heavy in the bass much moreso than the Denons.  Headphones like the Sony XB700 and various DJ style headphones, and some of the Ultrasones (like the Pro 900) also have a somewhat boosted bass.  If you're trying to recreate a dance club sound on your head then a headphone that boosts the bass might be more appropriate than the Denon.  Though you can EQ the Denon to give a throbbing and rumbling dance club style of bass, it's just tricky to do EQ right without causing clipping.
 
I don't EQ the bass with my D2000.  I like the level of bass it has.  I'm after a neutral but full sounding bass that is able to do things like 20 Hz pipe organ pedal notes.  I don't want a symphony orchestra to have dance club style of bass.  I want things still in the range of neutral.  And the D2000 does that for me.
 
I'd suggest taking your X-Can amp and a laptop/netbook to the audio store and comparing that with their demo setup that you heard before.  See if you can figure out why you're getting a different sound.  Maybe the demo setup you heard actually had a bass boost?  Maybe the dealer will be able to identify something that is not connected right in your setup, like maybe you're using a mono mini adapter to RCA instead of a stereo mini adapter?  I'd try to get that part figured out before trying things like a new $200 sound card cause the quality of the sound card you're using may not be the cause of your problem.

 

[hifi-noob]

 
Quote:

In regards to the bass heavy sound of the Denons.  The Denons have a strong bass for a headphone that is reasonably neutral.  That is a headphone that has a reasonably flat frequency response from 20 Hz to 20 kHz.  The bass is full and has some punch and rumble.  It's not an airy and light kind of bass that you can get with some headphones.  So when people call the Denon D2000/D5000/D7000 as being bass heavy that is in relation to other reasonably neutral headphones that have a lighter style of bass and that most likely roll off the bass in the low frequencies.
 
Being a reasonably neutral headphone the Denon is going to give you the level of bass that is in the recording.  If the recording is light in the bass then the Denon will play back with less bass.  If the recording is heavy in the bass then the Denon will play back with more bass.
 
There are headphones that do have a boosted bass response, that are indeed heavy in the bass much moreso than the Denons.  Headphones like the Sony XB700 and various DJ style headphones, and some of the Ultrasones (like the Pro 900) also have a somewhat boosted bass.  If you're trying to recreate a dance club sound on your head then a headphone that boosts the bass might be more appropriate than the Denon.  Though you can EQ the Denon to give a throbbing and rumbling dance club style of bass, it's just tricky to do EQ right without causing clipping.
 
I don't EQ the bass with my D2000.  I like the level of bass it has.  I'm after a neutral but full sounding bass that is able to do things like 20 Hz pipe organ pedal notes.  I don't want a symphony orchestra to have dance club style of bass.  I want things still in the range of neutral.  And the D2000 does that for me.
 
I'd suggest taking your X-Can amp and a laptop/netbook to the audio store and comparing that with their demo setup that you heard before.  See if you can figure out why you're getting a different sound.  Maybe the demo setup you heard actually had a bass boost?  Maybe the dealer will be able to identify something that is not connected right in your setup, like maybe you're using a mono mini adapter to RCA instead of a stereo mini adapter?  I'd try to get that part figured out before trying things like a new $200 sound card cause the quality of the sound card you're using may not be the cause of your problem.

This must be the best explaining text about these headphones that i have read. Thank you for taking your time explaining this.
It makes sense, i guess you will have to make a difference about "cool" sound and "good" sound. And good sound i do get, the level of details with the X-CAN is amazing.
 
But i miss the "cool" sound listening to some music, i listen most to metal and synth. Listening for example on Paradise Losts Draconian Times itś cool to here the bass guitar drive the music. I guess i will have to live with the fact that without an EQ i won´t get this.
 
Thanks again

 

[cannibalox]

just a thought as you're using a SB Live 5.1 : are you sure you are playing in stereo and there is no crossover redirecting the bass to a subwoofer out ?
The lack of bass punch you describe seem very weird to me.
and I don't think you should have to rely on EQ to get decent / good / amazing bass response with d5000.
 
things I'd try (but you probably did these already)
. check the headphones using other sources (mp3 player / ipod / cdp / tv set)
. check the jack plug
. check the soundblaster HQ settings
. maybe download foobar or mediamonkey instead of winamp

 

[hifi-noob]

Quote:

just a thought as you're using a SB Live 5.1 : are you sure you are playing in stereo and there is no crossover redirecting the bass to a subwoofer out ?

 
Crossover redirecting the bass? Not that i have configured at least, how do i check? I guess this has something to do with the LFE settings?
 
Quote:

. check the headphones using other sources (mp3 player / ipod / cdp / tv set)

I have tested it with at least to different sources, the built in DAC in the X-CAN and a portable computer. But i will continue to test them with other sources.
 
Quote:

. check the jack plug

Checked
 
Quote:

. check the soundblaster HQ settings

Checked
 
Quote:

. maybe download foobar or mediamonkey instead of winamp

Checked

 

[Ham Sandwich]

 
Quote:

 

But i miss the "cool" sound listening to some music, i listen most to metal and synth. Listening for example on Paradise Losts Draconian Times itś cool to here the bass guitar drive the music. I guess i will have to live with the fact that without an EQ i won´t get this.
 
Thanks again

 
I listened to the sound clips for Draconian Times over at Amazon (neat music, I think I like it).  The bass in the recording is a bit subdued and relegated to mostly foundation bottom end to the sound.  The bass isn't recorded to be a driving part of the music.  Bummer, cause the music seems like it could use some drive down there.  The lack of bass drive you're hearing is mostly due to the recording and not the fault of the headphones.  Any neutral headphone or neutral speaker is going to give you similar results. 
 
I like to listen "down" in music.  Listen down to what the bass and mid-bass are doing and how the rest of the music builds on that.  I tend to listen "down" to both rock and symphonic music.  When I hum along to music I'm often humming a bass line or a made up harmonized mid-bass line to go along with the music.  So yeah, I like bass parts and how the bass can drive the music and not just add a boring foundation.  Unfortunately a lot of rock music is not recorded or composed that way.
 
Most of the time I listen to the bass flat (99% of the time).  No boost or EQ in the bass.  There are a few songs though that I like that happen to be recorded more bass-lite than I would prefer.  For those I EQ or enable a virtual subwoofer effect.  For example, Iron Maiden's Piece of Mind.  Iron Maiden has a wonderful driving rhythmic bass.  But isn't brought out enough in the recording.  I add a slight "virtual subwoofer" effect that adds a touch of bass boost and virtual thump and separation.  The virtual subwoofer effect does just what I need to bring the bass line out and the bass rhythm out.  Careful though cause too much virtual sub and the sound turns to poo. 
 
You also need to be careful with digital EQ and digital effects that boost.  Boosting the bass with digital EQ or enabling effects like a virtual sub can cause digital clipping.  So if you boost you also need to decrease the digital level of the music to give enough headroom for the boost.  Otherwise you clip.  You can enable a digital level meter to see if the digital signal is getting up to the clipping zone.  Watch the level and decrease as needed to prevent clipping.
 
Part of it though is also getting used to what neutral sounds like.  When you listen to a neutral headphone and/or neutral speaker you get used to that sound.  You get used to the sound as the recording studio intended.  A sound without faux hype in the bass or other frequencies.  When you get used to the neutral sound you will be able to recognize when there is too much or too little bass.  But neutral sound can also be boring.  So it can be a challenge to get used to boring.  But once you do the neutral will sound more "right".