[sno1man]

There is good and bad in all types of music so generalizing is pointless and closes off your ears to some good stuff.

De La Soul
Public Enemy
Eric B and Rakim
NWA
Dr Dre
Ice Cube and Ice T

Those about cover the spectrum from political to gentle to down right offensive to some. But all of them had some very innovative music.

Yes some of it is nihilistic and demeaning but lots of rock has that element to it. Under my thumb by the Rolling Stones is not exactly uplifting of women, but still a great tune in my opinion.

Even Eminem while making some crap (encore) also had a great song in Lose Yourself from the 8 mile soundtrack

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphie Least talented individuals? Do you even know the hours of work these guys put in their mixes and lyrics? Thats seriously one of the dumbest post ive seen on these forums. Wether you like the music or not is your opinion, but to say that rappers are not talented while being clueless as to how hard they work, is just preposterous. You need to be more open minded.

The fact that you find my post as one of the dumbest post you've seen is all I need to know

I'm going to take a quote I just saw on TV a few hours ago:
"It's good to be open-minded, but not so open-minded that your brain falls out"

Time put in does not equate to talent. If everyone spends the same amount of time in school and studying, do we all end up with equal intelligence? Clearly, we do not

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemans23 this conversation is overly biased and ludicrous. everyone who is hating unnecessarily on rap needs to go out and buy the following Illogic - Celestial Clockwork Illogic - Unforseen Shadows Company Flow - Funcrusher Plus Deltron 3030 - Deltron 3030 Murs - 3:16 Murs - Varsity Blues Braille - Shades of Gray Sage Francis - Sickly Business Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein

And if we do, and still don't like them, will you offer a buy back?

The lyrics you posted were very nice (the second, not the first

), but that still doesn't mean someone has to like it. I appreciate the talent of opera singers, but I'm not putting Placido Domingo in my cd player anytime soon.

I still stand very firmly on what I said before. The genre itself leads to the most untalented "artists" to make it big-time. The talent is there, it's just buried like dinosaur bones under the myriad of trash. You have to do some heavy digging to find it.

 

[HVK]

RAP LICKS PIPE!!!

 

[zoboomofo]

I keep hearing guys here who get defensive about this sacred cow called rap. They're missing the point.

Pretend I didn't single out rap. There are celebrities who have bad habits. Some do naughty things with consenting adults, or by themselves. Fine. Now eliminate everybody who doesn't peddle drugs & women, launder money, spit hate, extort, or something else that has a victim. It's not enough to make a sex tape or wear something crazy in this league. To be a star in this group, you must play the game that brings out the worst qualities in people, and inflict them on the public.

Meanwhile other performers in this style seek to make art, but what's so macho about that? There's less chance of sensation or fame in that route. Now let's say this group was Gregorian monks. I may enjoy their music very much, but there is a big problem with the aspirations of the successors. When this groups straightens itself out, and gets back to basics, I'll feel much better about listening to it.

It doesn't matter if I like to get jiggy to MC Hammer. No supreme knowledge of rap can rationalize the cave-man attitude of the highest profile rap stars today.

When Eminem made that duet with Elton John after all that press on his homophobia, I felt that that was an important gesture to make. I'd like to see more of that kind of stuff with the rest of the issues troubling rap's image.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeAmEye And if we do, and still don't like them, will you offer a buy back? The lyrics you posted were very nice (the second, not the first ), but that still doesn't mean someone has to like it. I appreciate the talent of opera singers, but I'm not putting Placido Domingo in my cd player anytime soon. I still stand very firmly on what I said before. The genre itself leads to the most untalented "artists" to make it big-time. The talent is there, it's just buried like dinosaur bones under the myriad of trash. You have to do some heavy digging to find it.

Amen. I have heard pretty much the WHOLE spectrum of rap in my life(granted, I did not glue my ear to the speaker and take notes), but I have only heard THREE rap songs that I would not kill myself if I heard again: "Insane in the Brain" by Cypress Hill, "Loose Yourself" by Eminem, and "Baby Got Back" by Sir Mix-A-Lot. It's not like I am sitting in my shack in the middle of Montana lobbing bombs at rap, I have heard lots of it.

The part I like about these conversations is whenever someone (not all, mind you) feels like someone is generalizing rap in a negative way, they go "nah, ahh, you need to hear such and such to really understand what rap is about." Yeah, that's all well and good, but I do not see most of these rap proponents (most of you guys excluded from what I can tell) swallowing their own medicine. They know precisely crap when it comes to anything but rap.

So here is the part where I will NOT blame the rap artists, LOL. No, in reality I do NOT blame any of them... I blame the people who buy their music. If you guys that like rap (I mean REALLY like it), DO something about it. Why not try to get those that have bought into the whole gangsta' farce to listen to the socially and intellectually meaningful rap? To me, that is killing two birds with one stone: you spread the popularity of those rappers that are worth the poly that their music is stamped on, and you shed the light on the fact that rappers like 50 cent are nothing but a cancer, infecting the very genre that you are sticking up for. I will always stick up for your guys' right to listen to what you want to hear, but realize this, you have nobody to blame but your fellow fans of rap for the state it is in.

 

[zoboomofo]

Yes! In rap, there are so many guys who sing about living like a star. They are to rap as American Idol is to pop music. Instant gratification, and excess. The problem is, there are more rap stars than rap artists. I think that the problem is because the most influencial stars of yesterday were also hooligans, and today's watered down versions are hooligans minus the skill. If we could just get an explosion of something, like a Nirvana - Nevermind for rap that could change this downhill trend.

 

[blip]

You see most of us don't really consider mainstream rap to be rap at all. Instead it is hip-hop or even pop-hop. Rap fans are as different from pop-hop fans as Norah Jones fans are from Britney Spears fans. We bear no allegiance to them and no particular responsibility towards them.

Instead the majority of us are responding to the assault on rap as a musical form. It is my belief that much of what holds rap back is the attitude that it should not be a respected form of music. This belief prevents the creation of a true rap revolution.

Not that a blame the serious music community. A taste for rap is like a taste for anything, a social construction. The media infra-structure around pop-hop has created a series of misnomers about it that have burrowed deep into the collective unconsciousness. The musical or pseudo-objective (i.e. judged from a set of social accepted standards governing the criticism of other music) merits of some rap is fairly meaningless by comparison.

The other major objection that I think many of us raise is that, to a certain extent, one must recognize even some of the rougher rap at there as a simple expression of the lives of a certain group. If we accept and respect it as such an expression, then is it so surprising that those that create it have a tendency to get involved in this kind of thing? Should we turn our eyes away from the ugly in art because the artist themself is ugly? Personally, I don't think so. (Not that 50 cent is much of an artist, IMHO. The last real example of this I would say was Tupac.)

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blip You see most of us don't really consider mainstream rap to be rap at all. Instead it is hip-hop or even pop-hop. Rap fans are as different from pop-hop fans as Norah Jones fans are from Britney Spears fans. We bear no allegiance to them and no particular responsibility towards them. Instead the majority of us are responding to the assault on rap as a musical form. It is my belief that much of what holds rap back is the attitude that it should not be a respected form of music. This belief prevents the creation of a true rap revolution. Not that a blame the serious music community. A taste for rap is like a taste for anything, a social construction. The media infra-structure around pop-hop has created a series of misnomers about it that have burrowed deep into the collective unconsciousness. The musical or pseudo-objective (i.e. judged from a set of social accepted standards governing the criticism of other music) merits of some rap is fairly meaningless by comparison. The other major objection that I think many of us raise is that, to a certain extent, one must recognize even some of the rougher rap at there as a simple expression of the lives of a certain group. If we accept and respect it as such an expression, then is it so surprising that those that create it have a tendency to get involved in this kind of thing? Should we turn our eyes away from the ugly in art because the artist themself is ugly? Personally, I don't think so. (Not that 50 cent is much of an artist, IMHO. The last real example of this I would say was Tupac.)

The appreciation for rap has to be earned, not demanded. Much like rock and roll and other genres of music that were on the fringes before, it is all about earning a place in music, not complaining that it has not been given its fair shake. I really think that you have more to fear from those that are turning rap into a joke instead of those that condemn it. Change and progress comes from within, not the other way around. Again, for those who are "responding to the assault on rap as a musical form", give those who do not like rap a reason to listen.

 

[blip]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a chicken & egg situation. Bad pop-hop is made because there is a market for it. Good rap is rarely made because there isn't a market for it. Why isn't there a market for it? Because there isn't good rap to listen to (or at least it isn't widely advertised).

It is this complex interaction of forces that controls whether or not those with the artistitic sensibilities (whatever that means) that more serious music lovers crave get directed into rap and whether or not they find a market for it.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blip I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a chicken & egg situation. Bad pop-hop is made because there is a market for it. Good rap is rarely made because there isn't a market for it. Why isn't there a market for it? Because there isn't good rap to listen to (or at least it isn't widely advertised). It is this complex interaction of forces that controls whether or not those with the artistitic sensibilities (whatever that means) that more serious music lovers crave get directed into rap and whether or not they find a market for it.

I agree. That is why I blame the public. They are what drive the music industry. I have the feeling that most people just follow the flow of the very vocal minority in each music genre. People are just dumb like that, and there is no getting around it unfortunately.

 

[NormanBates]

Quote:

I disagree strongly. Why? Becuase EVERY OTHER artist also has to deal with getting mixes and lyrics down properly. Part of being a musician is having to make those decisions, and having to make their songs perfect. There is absolutely no denying that there are many tallentless trolls who make it to the top. 50 Cent is a great example. The guy can't even speak/move his mouth properly because he's been shot so many times! Could a one-handed guy become a basketball star? Quite unlikely. There ARE tallented rappers out there. Take the beasty boys. They have a great attitude (which even I enjoy hearing sometimes!), and are actually GOOD at rhyming. They all play musical instruments and are very good at doing so. HOWEVER, the overwhelming majority of rap is simply people talking fast, adding in as much tasteless, senseless trash as they can to become popular. Afterall, what's the point in rap if the little kids don't get their swear words in? I hate this idea that because these people come from broken homes, and because they comited crimes in the past and did bad things in the past, that now they can just influence OTHERS (their listeners) to do the same, and now it's considered GOOD? Please! EyeAmEye: You summed it up beautifully. Why couldn't I be alive during the days when the popular music consisted of The Doors, The Beatles, The Who, Floyd, The Talking Heads, and Zeppelin?

what does everyone have against 50 cents? 50 cent is(was) a good rapper, better than most of the 'underground artists.' I loved his earlier works. Clever lyrics, catchy tracks. Even 'The Masscacre' isn't as bad an album as some people make it out to be. i'd listen to him over Beasty Boys anyday. But on the whole, i agree that rap is on the decline.

Quote:

I wholeheartedly support their right to produce this garbage, but geez, you'd think that people would look past this nonsense and see it for what it is: food for the ignorant-minded.

this coming from a guy who listens to heavy metal. no offense, but metal music's washed up. so's punk

 

[jpr703]

Most rap reminds me of professional wrestling and boy bands rolled into one. It's just a marketing vehicle for selling low budget, recycled crap to small-minded individuals that like to think that listening to it somehow makes them tough. The whole idea of East Coast versus West Coast or this rapper against that rapper is just as silly as Andy Kaufman wrestling women and exchanging insults with Jerry Lawler.

 

[viator122]

I agree we shouldn't generalize about rap. There's good and bad in every genre of music out there:

There's Led Zeppelin on one side and Nickelback on the other.
Miles Daivs vs. Kenny G.
Gladys Knight & The Pips vs. Destiny's Child
The Clash vs. Sum 41

AND

The Roots vs. guys like 50 cent

The point is that the "bad" element of rap promotes violence, objectification of women, drug abuse and crime on an unprecedented scale. It's not that rock music has never brought any negativity, it's that rap is doing it on a whole other level. Additionally, in their private lives, many popular musicians from all genres have their scrapes with the law, drug problems, alcohol problems, etc. but you don't see Pearl Jam and U2 shooting at each other in the streets.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by blip I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is a chicken & egg situation. Bad pop-hop is made because there is a market for it. Good rap is rarely made because there isn't a market for it. Why isn't there a market for it? Because there isn't good rap to listen to (or at least it isn't widely advertised). It is this complex interaction of forces that controls whether or not those with the artistitic sensibilities (whatever that means) that more serious music lovers crave get directed into rap and whether or not they find a market for it.

Couldn't it be entirely possible that the good rap you speak of isn't made because not enough people actually like it? I know the typical battle cry of all underground music is not enough exposure, but what if it's underground for the simple reason people rejected it, save a small audience?

Most of the music I listen to can probably be labeled "underground". I don't know if it's lack of exposure or lack of interest (probably a bit of both, I guess). The one thing I do know is that it's a fringe taste, and one people either love or hate, very little in-between.

Sidenote: Everyone keeps mentioning The Roots as an example of "good rap". If that is the case, I can clearly state with 100% certainty that I hate "bad rap", "good rap", "underground rap", "pop-hop", "hip-hop", "sock-hop" (no wait, that's something else...